Capital Ship Rebalancing

There are 50 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by SWAT_OP-R8R.

  • If I understand the previous discussions correctly the main concern about battleships and other capital ships can be broken down to 2 main issues.


    1. Cap ships are too vulnerable to fighters.

    2. There is a general lack of need to use these kinds of ships.


    At this point I of course could be wrong and there are more issues to discuss about this topic but that's why we have this discussion..


    1) I thought about the topic some time now and the technical options are limited.

    Especially if I consider that boosting the combat strength of cap ships and/or their general stats could easy lead to the situation that they end up overpowered and rich players start using cap ships to bully others. That is a situation we should try to avoid.


    I already shared an initial idea to balance weapons and shield efficiency instead.


    general explanation:

    In FL every weapon can be set to cause a specific hull damage and some energy damage to shields. This would be a value we can play with.

    However, more important in my eyes is the fact that every weapon causes a specific damage type e.g. laser, photon, tachyon etc. At the same time every shield in the game belongs to an type of shields e.g. molecular, graviton, positron.

    Probably most of you did not care about this little detail but you all have been affected by it.

    A tachyon weapon causes lets say 500 damage (based on its stats). Against a molecular type shield a tachyon weapon causes 20% bonus damage (with other words a total of 600 damage). Against a positron shield it causes 20% less damage (a total of 400). Tachyon vs graviton is +/-0 (500 damage).

    We are talking here about a 40% efficiency fluctuation depending on which weapon is used against which shields. This is the current state and if you did not know yet, now you know.

    This applies to all weapons and shields in the game, NPCs and also your PVP performance.


    What I have in mind is to use this mechanic to separate small ship combat from cap ship combat a bit.

    Fighter weapons will be less effective against cap ship shields while cap ships weapons wont instantly blow every small fighter out of the skies.

    At the same time fighter vs fighter and cap ship vs cap ship remains as effective as it used to be.

    At this point I need to mention that this only works on shields, damage to hull remains the same (there is no technical way to use this mechanic on hulls).

    I don't know how much we have to apply a damage reduction. It might be enough to have 50%, maybe we need 80%... maybe a different value. That has to be tested and carefully balanced.

    It is not supposed to be to make combat between fighter and cap ships impossible but to make it harder.

    In the end fighters should be efficiently be used against other fighters and cap ships against other cap ships.


    2) This leads me to the point where we need to think how cap ships remain or maybe even become an important gameplay option. The stuff I explained above could have a negative impact since the mod is very much focused on fighter gameplay and if using cap ships against fighters is a hard task people simply wont use battleships etc.

    This needs to be avoided by giving these big ships a new purpose.

    I might have a solution to that.

    As announced with for the Blackstar update I want to introduce more dynamic content into CF. One part of this dynamic content is an invading fleet.

    My idea here is to make it hard to stop this fleet if you only use fighters.

    I want the battleships of that invasion to be extremely hard to kill if you are using only fighters. Player owned Battleships or other cap ships on the other hand are supposed to be able to kill enemy battleships much more efficiently.

    Just like in point 1) we can achieve this by balancing weapons and shields. But this time we do it a little bit different.


    Enemy fighters will do bonus damage against player cap ships.

    Enemy cap ships will do bonus damage on player fighters.

    This in theory would force players to team up when attacking the enemy fleet. A mix of fighters and cap ships would be required.

    The player fighters will have to take down the NPC fighters while the player cap ships need to take care of the enemy cap ships.

    Enemy ships will drop loot that makes it worth to attack the invading fleet.


    These are my ideas so far.

    What I don't now yet is how the final balancing needs to look like. It is something we need to test.

    For that purpose I probably will create a test system on the server (locked away from public access) where the different ship types can be tested under real conditions.


    Opinions?

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  • Now this is an interesting topic. I can say that i wanted this from a very long time. Ships like gunboats and cruissers/destroyers are not played at all (you can still see someone using battleships now and then) but even knowing this i am still eager to actually play with one of them... I even wanted to go with my order destroyer to the doms event, but Ajay said that Wanderer was already using one and a second will be just obstacle. Sure he survived for a few waves, but being blow up at some point was inevitable. So personal for me i do want to use them and your idea with the invasion is actually really good, but the real problem is how to achieve it. Like you said above, this should make the players to team up with various kind of ships, something that is done in real life. Have you seen a battleship going alone in the ocean? or being escorted with only jets? No When the navi is going he brings a whole fleet, that's what have to happen also in CF. The thing you said about the limitaions of on what can be worked is actually disturbing, because less options means less results. Here are some of my thoughs an they are IF they can actually be made/if possible.

    As the smallest big class ship, the gunboad may use trusters. That way he will get a lot more maneuverability and a bigger chance of surviving.

    About the cruissers/destroyers. I don't know what's the actual range of their main gun/forward gun, but their secondaries are about 1200 (+- 100-200, don't know the exact number) and knowing they are actually supposed to be able to kill other cap ships (something that is abosolutely impossible right now) they should get a change in their guns. Maybe rework the forward gun, give it a more damage to actually be able to kill a bs, if you might think it will get too op, increase the damage, but also the cd time, that way if let's say you can take out a bs with 2-3 hits from the main gun but you have a big cd time on it you have to be precise when and how to use it, maybe also increase the overal range of the guns? and adding more ressistance to fire is also a good thing. Or maybe let them be able to use hull upgrades? Or just give them mounting weapons like on a bs?

    As i said, those are only thoughs and suggestions about what may be tried, but if it can actually be done. There might be plenty of other things, but that's all that i can think of at the moment.

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  • As the smallest big class ship, the gunboad may use trusters. That way he will get a lot more maneuverability and a bigger chance of surviving.

    Could be a nice idea. Last time I used a gunboat, I mostly used it as a really big fighter. Gunboats already have increased strafe and reverse speed, this could be another step in that direction.


    Now, I have made a couple of proposals towards this topic in another thread. I'm going to reiterate them here so you won't have to search for them.


    I'm also sure cruisers/destroyers could benefit if the range of their defense turrets was buffed. Either a considerable buff to range or a small buff to both range and rate of fire. Perhaps a strong buff to range on cruisers and moderate buffs to range and rate of fire to destroyers; for diversity. Such a buff IMO isn't as radical as a total rearmament of these ships, and could be relatively easy to implement (correct me if I'm wrong).



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  • I generally don't see much problems with increasing weapon range.

    Upgrade kit might be something we could consider loot from the enemy ships.

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  • Cruisers definitely need a buff on weapon range, maybe gunboats too.

    As they are now, cruisers have ~2k range on main gun, which is adequate for hunting alien battleships in inner core, but could be more, as player battleships have up to 2.7k range on the turrets, so it's a bit pointless to use a cruiser in IC.

    And you can just forget about attacking a player battleship in a cruiser, you're dead before you're in range.

    Same for fighters. Even though the damage output is fine, Cruiser turrets only have ~800m range, while fighters can have range up to 1300. If I encounter alien fighters with my cruiser, I can't even kill them.

    Most of this stuff also goes for gunboats.


    And of course, fighters rule them all, even battleships.

  • make suggestions what you consider reasonable ranges for the ship classes

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  • What about ~2K on secondary and 3-5K on the forward gun for cruisers?

    Being able to outrange alien cruisers would make them usable in Inner Core. I think their forward guns can't do much to them because their shield regens all the damage it causes.


    "Across the savage skies and through the fissures in the fields,
    The rumble of the engines and the trundle of the wheels,
    Through hell and horror trudge and yet their spirits never yield.
    Will they sing of these forsaken pawns of war?"
    -Miracle Of Sound, "Pawns of War".

  • I like the idea of the capital ships (cruisers and battleship) being buffed in combination with the planned event. Having a nice mixture of ships against the aliens will be a lot of fun assume.


    Now regarding the buff of the ships, I really think that battleships ships should be buffed a lot, since they are the biggest class of ships. The fear of players using them against other players doesn't cross my mind, since I don't think people are that crazy. I think an alone fighter shouldn't be able to destroy a battleship. Having 2 of them sounds more plausible (taking into account the freelancer game style and not going full EVE online battles or similar). How about add hull dmg reduction items or HP increase in general + a 65% dmg reduction on shields from all types of weapons?


    Regarding cruisers, I agree with the points made by the others. They have okay mobility, so just upgrading the damage a little bit would help them stay the midship class, since it's main purpose is to be able to take out a battleship easier, while being close to mobility of a fighter (a mixture of both).


    Would you like a more direct suggestion approach OP, or having a post like this helps you figure out how to balance/buff things?

  • How about add hull dmg reduction

    that is not possible


    Would you like a more direct suggestion approach OP, or having a post like this helps you figure out how to balance/buff things?

    I already started gathering numbers by ship category have applied a few changes based on the suggestions.

    Nothing is final yet since I did not take the DPS numbers into account so far.


    What I have implemented are the new weapon ranges and damage reductions by shields.

    I currently run with a 50% damage reduction. This is not a final number but significant enough for conclusive tests.

    The way I have set it up makes it possible to balance based on weapon type and also based on the ship class.

    There are 4 new shield categories (battleship, cruiser, gunboat, utility) and so far 5 weapon categories (battleship turrets, Cruiser forward guns, cruiser turrets, gunboat forward guns and gunboat turrets). Cap ships deal normal damage against other cap ships but 50% reduced damage against fighters. Fighters deal normal damage against other fighters (depending on the shield class) and 50% reduced damage against Cap ships.

    I can do a rough calculation which numbers would work best but in the end some tests will have to be done online.


    This weapon shield balancing has to be extended when the Blackstar update will be released because of the new fleet.


    Battleship turret ranges have not been altered yet. Its a range between 800m and 2700m depending on fire rate and damage output.

    Cruiser/Destroyer forward guns have a new range of 4000m

    Gunboat forward guns 2500m (due to higher maneuverability)

    Cruiser turrets are set to 2000m

    Gunboat turrets to 1500m


    Maybe these numbers will have to change due to the DPS calculations.

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  • Btw, is needed reduce BSs damage vs fighters? (it is also not much logical, why BS weapons should dealt less damage to small fighters?) Fighters can leave fight or boost away and properly evading VHF is quite hard target for any BS. It can be issue in bigger PvP battles, but both sides can bring theirs BS if such situation will happen. I was using BS in PvP quite much and these ships worked well with support ... on the other side they did not dictated how fight goes and some ships when used against were really tough targets. And for PvE there is not good if BS cannot defend properly against fighters in Inner Core.


    Im just asking bcs I see really interesting that these things changes in CF.

  • in the end something that needs to be balanced, but that requires the proper numbers first and tests to be done

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  • I Agree Testing need to be Done in Game & Blind Spots on Capital ships Need to be Plugged. When a VHF can park in the ships Blind Spot then it is A Fate complete the VHF Just Stays in Blind spot & Kills the Capital ship. One Dragon Fly can Kill a Capital ship & the Dragon Fly will not get any Damage from the Capital ship??? Full Broad Side guns & Flak the Dragon Fly & other VHF's will Kill the Capital Ship ( when in the hands of a Pilot that Knows the Blind Spots)


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  • I don't fly cap ships - never did and never will, because to me these things are like cows on steroids. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the fireworks resulted in one's explosion.


    I think that before changing the turrets range and/or increasing damage vs specific shield type, the following two problems need to be addressed:


    1. Blind spots
      • Repositioning turret HPs can attenuate this problem - the cap ship pilot wont be able to hit the target with all turrets, but is still better than not being able to hit at all.
    2. Cap ships (and eventually trains) handling parameters
      • 1 fighter can spin the crap out of a cap ship. Even though a cap ship pilot is immune to sea sick, when this happens he/she will surely practice the "fist to whatever exists on the desk" maneuver, thus keeping afloat the IT consumables market.


    As for reducing cap ship damage output vs fighters - I agree with Martind: fighters can pretty much toy with a cap ship right now. Fixing the blind spot and infinity spinning on cap ships while reducing the dmg output will not change this thing.


    Besides, we're forgetting that bombers exist. In my eyes, cap ship modifications must be done having in mind a 1v1 fight between a cap ship and a bomber - this is to make sure that 1v1s are still a thing. 1 VHF should not be able to take down a BS/Cruiser/Liner, should be able to take down a gunboat instead. 2 bombers should be able to take down a cap ship with medium effort.

    Unfortunately, I can't translate "medium effort" and all other metaphors into numbers. But I think that blind spot & spin fixes + turrets range extension (no damage reduction vs fighters) + MAYBE a cap ship shield capacity /regen rate increase would reach this goal.

  • Yes this is another thing A Flea can spin a Capital ship just by Bashing into it :) It is Like a Fart taking down an OAK Tree.. I Understand the theory that a Butterfly wings can alter the Way Stuff happens ??? This Theory is Bullshit in my Opinion.. Same as I say it is like a Mouse Killing a Lion ... Prove it !!! This is a Fiction thing & we all Like Fiction (BUT) there needs to be some sort Reality :applaus:Maybe we can have A COVID ship that can Kill all Ships (:king:king:king) Then you Buy a Repair Ship but most can Only Fly 1 ship @ 1 Time.. This is only my Opinion & I want Debate, All of it the Good the Bad & the Ugly:thumbsup:


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  • this topic is going to get a bit more complicated

    finished the calculations based on the current numbers


    bsrebalance.html


    as reference for balancing we need to take values from fighters


    for shields this would be: Adv. Champion H. F. Shield

    capacity = 11038

    regen = 245

    offline_threshold = 0.150000

    shield_type = S_Graviton01

    -> 11038*(1-0.150000) = 9382,3 = total shield capacity


    and a mk10 weapon lets say.... a PPC (i guess it fits into the average top tier range)

    hull_damage = 977.100006

    energy_damage = 100

    refire_delay = 0.330000

    ->DPS-Hull = 977.100006/0.330000 = 2960,91

    ->DPS-Shield = ((977.100006/2)+100)/0.330000 = 1783,48


    based on these numbers we will have to find a meaningful balance


    I tested the different shield classes and the damage reduction and it seems to work as intended.

    Now its only a totally messed up balancing process.


    A VHF with 6 PPCs would do 17765,46 damage to hull and 10700,88 damage to shields.

    A Dreadnaught has 450000 hull and 63750 shields. Without damage reduction from the new shield types the shields would be down in 6 seconds, the hull in another 25 seconds. A 50% shield modifier would in this case only make the fight 6 seconds longer.

    A 90% damage reduction on cap ship shields would increase the time required to take out a battleship shield to 60 seconds or even longer due to the regeneration rate.


    A vhf with ~10000 hull and 10000 shield would explode after a little more than 2 seconds after being hit with 4 PPCs (confirmed by tests).

    The benefit of a vhf.... it moves fast and wont get hit as much as a capital ship.

    Balancing is really going to be tricky.

    By raw numbers most cap ships are not even in a bad spot compared to fighters... its about the subjective component of getting hit vs not getting hit.

    I think to balance it we would first need to figure out how long do we want cap ships to last under direct fire. How long does a normal fighter pvp take?

    Based on such a timeframe it would be possible to balance the cap ship damage input... and then from that point take care of the damage output on fighters.

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  • I Think we need 2 get some Pilots in MP to Test out the Alterations, Arena seems to be the best place to do this Lets see if any VHF can take out a Capital ship Easily. This will require Various Battleships & Various VHF's & Dreadnaughts, with & without Clan Equipped Torps etc & the capital ships with or without the Upgrades . Also pilots that know how to use the Various ships 2 the Best of the Current abilities .


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  • This turns out to be extremely complicated especially since the numbers currently dont seem to be that much out of place.

    I had to simplify the calculation by putting up some inaccurate assumptions.

    e.g. I did the calculations for fighter damage based on a VHF with 6 PPCs. In reality the VHF only have 4 mk10 weapons and 2 mk9 weapons. But they also might have an additional turret and missiles. So for simplicity reasons I went with the assumption of 6 mk10 weapons (in this case PPC). I think this compensates the variation with turrets and missiles. The difference should at least not be significant.

    All my calculations ignore shield gating and are done under the assumption that there is no energy drain from the weapons. I also did not consider any mounted armor equipment or the fact that after 12 seconds shields would rebuild with 15% capacity)


    What I mean with "the numbers currently dont seem to be that much out of place" is that a VHF with 9700 hull and 11038 shield (this is a very likely scenario) is going to be destroyed while being under constant attack with 6 PPC in ~1.5 seconds. I verified this number in a test environment.

    This of course is based on the assumption that every shot hits.


    Now what is the situation with 6 PPCs vs Cap ships?

    I took into account the hitpoints aswell has the shields with non-stop fire.

    Assuming 0 damage reduction of the new shield modifiers a gunboat would survive 4,28 seconds, a cruiser 8,57 seconds, a battleship 25,8 seconds and a dreadnaught 31,43 seconds.

    The chart below shows how the numbers change if a certain % damage reduction is applied to the shields (hull damage remains the same).


    Screenshot 2021-02-24 105648.jpg


    Ignoring the damage reduction however, it means that a VHF by calculation will survive 1.5 seconds while a battleship at least makes it 25.8 seconds.

    By these numbers the current balancing does not even sound wrong.

    There is a fundamental difference between these ship classes that I can not simply measure and put into perspective.

    Ship size and agility.

    There are no numbers to really meaure that and that makes balancing everything super tricky.


    We have to apply subjective goals instead.

    Such as "how long do we want a battleship to endure when being attacked by a fighter?".

    5 minutes?

    10 minutes?


    If we assume 5 minutes to be a value to go for that would be 300 seconds.

    A 95% damage reduction would mean 243.35 seconds for a battleship under non-stop fire. But lets face it no fighter would non-stop attack without evading and/or reloading weapon energy.

    Let's assume a 95% damage reduction and we get into the area of having fights take 5-10mins. (I can only make rough estimates here.)


    Figther vs Fighter gameplay would remain untouched.

    Fighters vs capital ships would have significantly more difficulties.


    But we also need to consider what it looks the other way around. How fast can battleships in theory destroy fighters?

    Again, lets start with the numbers.

    The calculation is purely based on the turrets (the main weapons are excluded).

    The 4 gunship turrets can in theory destroy a VHF in 3.3 seconds.

    The 7 turrets of a cruiser require 1.8 - 5.7 for that job. (cruiser turret damage is highly inconsistent and needs to be rebalanced)

    8 Battleship turrets need ~1.25 seconds with the exception of the Rheinland turret which is much stronger but has a much shorter range.

    Not bad actually. (I have not even take a damage reduction into account)


    And now to the subjective part.

    With the exception of the gunboats the other cap ships are that big that you will never get the chance to point all the turrets at your target.

    Some turrets are on the left side.... some on the right side... some on the bottom... some on the top and in the end there always is a big ship hull between them.

    In theory you can double or tribble the numbers for battleships and cruisers above.

    The question is if it matters at all since cap ships are not meant to destroy fighters with ease. Maybe these numbers are exactly where they belong to.

    By increasing the survivability of cap ships we would also increase the time they have to take care of attacking fighters.

    Maybe that already is enough.


    Of course the inconsistent cruiser turrets have to be balanced.



    Once the balance between the different ship classes is sorted out it would also be required to figure out the number for cap ship vs cap ship combat. I guess specifically the primary cap ships weapons will play a very big role there. But I did not do any calculations here yet because first the balancing between cap ships and fighters need to be done in a meaningful way.

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  • Did you consider that most battleship guns have multiple barrels?

    E.g. an Adv. Battleship Defense Turret has more nominal damage than Kusarian, but Kusarian turrets actually deal twice the nominal damage per shot because it's double barreled (and as such, outdamages the Coalition battleship turret). Therefore the range advantage of the Coalition turret is negligible compared to that.


    Before you ask. Yes, I did test it soon after deploying a battleship in Inner Core for the first time.


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  • f*** no, did not consider it in the calculation

    it is getting more and more complicated

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  • correct me if i am wrong but.... the Adv. Battleship Defense Turret seems to underperform compared to the other battleship turrets, right?

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