Worldy Matters

Hm, not an easy answer to a question that has a complex story.

I believe that freedom brings freedom to the people, with that connected are for sure duties.

Now freedom gets into danger, if our EU is "flooded" with people having another idea of what freedom is and have different religious background. I would not call that all the terror nowadays are based on the refugees, not even the Muslims. Its a few - maybe more - crazy and sick people that lets prejudge about all the others. The worst thing how do you to distinguish between good and bad - how to do that at a border? Its not possible.

America has one big advantage here - they have big oceans on the west and eastern borders. People need to travel by airplane - the fewer are immigrating by boat or by foot and most probably would immigrate through the Mexican border side.

Our political leaders are there to protect our civilization, yes but not solely - there are international laws they need to consider and obey. You have to proof if people can claim asylum. You need to take care of human rights. Its not an easy task if you ask me, and it would be wrong to close the borders and let people rotten on the other side of the border or just return them to where they escaped from. This is not my understanding of human rights, international law and the Geneva Conventions. I also believe our political leaders are not even able to protect us from the named criminal liable deeds from normal European citizens. What worries me more is, what are the real reasons for fleeing, and wouldn't it be better to fight the real reasons? Why are there so many Islamic driven terror acts nowadays? Why don't we see Christianity terror down there is the middle east? What is so utterly wrong with people don't follow any religion (cause often that are the targets of the Islam terrorists).

I believe really much of the trouble is based on education. And if some idiotic terrorists believe to murder other people in the name of whomever they deem to see fit, then those people are probably not well educated. They didnt learned yet that there are other religions and that people can live in peace. By the way thats why i see it dangerous to have religion driven countries. Religion should be part of oneself and not driven by the country or anyone else. Some people dont even dare to question what is told to them and some just believe everything. I tend to believe that religions are not evil by principal, but a few tend to make it evil and some do believe in that. Education plays a big role. So lets bring education to the world Thats not the solution but a good way to get to a solution. Being open minded and tolerant - also towards others and uncommon or different things.

There is a lot of whats going wrong in the world. To our regret, we all (or our current and former politicians) have a guilt in the current situation.

Disclaimer: you have the right to disagree with me.
I have been educating myself about Islam and concluded it has its good and evil parts. There are many kinds of muslims and only a few are really out there to cause mayhem or convert Europe to Islam. Most just want to have peace. Problem is, you don't know who is who until they blow up some people.
Please note, I have no problem with muslims in general, only with radical Islam.
I agree with @Huor about being guilty.
Europe's politicians are being too politically correct and that should change. Politicians should grow a pair and address problems instead of looking the other way.
They should drive zero tolerance for migrant misbehaviour and send them back to where they came from. Instead, anyone who reports migrant misconduct is called a racist, wow.
Another big problem is their point of view on the war in Syria. European politicians are too idealistic, they still believe they can get justice in Syria. They say Assad is bad, he must leave and they won't negotiate with him. Instead, they support the Arabic spring in Syria, send weapons to the opposition and contribute to total chaos. Europe could have totally avoided the Syrian war, the rise of Isis and the migrant crisis, only if they had negotiated with Assad instead of pulling out their diplomats.
We all know what happened with justice in Iraq and Libya. At least those dictators could keep order, when you remove order, you get chaos.

As for America, I think neither Trump nor Hillary would be a good president. Hillary would make a second Germany, and Trump would start the 3rd world war. It's a shame Obama cannot stay 4 more years, and I hope he gets back after 4 years, if USA still exists by then.

@Portalearth what do the American media have to say? Try facebook and twitter, they are not censored as much as the mainstream media.

Hello,
I think (please correct me if I am wrong) that this is not a question about politicians, and there is little they can do to prevent such things, but much more depends on how good customs, police and security guards do their jobs (e.g. checking people's luggage, cutting illegal weapon supplies, checking suspicious looking people in public places, etc.). (By the way, any near east looking person with a large bag is considered suspicious here in almost 100% cases, and nobody talks about racism or tolerance...)

Anyway, my direct answer is Yes - political leaders in my country (Russia) are doing enough, whatever it refers to. Can't be that sure about police, but I must admit that in recent years I see a lot of them at transport stations and various public buildings.
Feeling safe so far, although I may be too careless.

- Wanderer -

@Portalearth same here. As soon as anything happens, the first thing the mainstream media say is: it was not a muslim/refugee, it was local criminals or something
Next, they try to cover it up like nothing happened. It is almost a crime to report how bad immigrants are behaving.
Good thing there's plenty of alternative media here too (and no not all of them are right wing)
Need I remind you of the muslim rapefugees in Cologne? Now I am probably being racist (sarcasm)
It took 3 days for the mainstream media to finally admit they were rapefugees and not some local thugs. (while the police saw plenty of those guys' papers that night)

And yes, you need to be quick on Facebook. One day you are reading something, save the link, next day it's gone

Ok I am kinda tired from work so if I manage to screw this up some I am sorry. Point out my "what was or is that's" and I will try and clarify.

The Muslim religion " if you wish to call it that", and in my opinion its not it falls in the category of an Occult, is buy its very nature, not peaceful. It does state in its texts that rape, murder, theft, telling untruths, and many more are not only acceptable but encouraged, as long as its against an infidel, i.e. none Muslim.
I have spent almost 30 years studying these clowns ( i served in desert storm ) and learning so much history in the process that its not funny.
Christians are allays being slammed for the Crusades but what most history teachers, books, even higher institutions of learning fails to tell is that the crusades where a reaction to nearly 400 years of attacks and well the same damn thing that they are doing today. The would raid and destroyer villages of many other cultures for hundreds of years. The Catholic church sent emissaries and diplomats to the Muslim leaders to try and make some kind of peace and or agreements to try and get the atrocities that where being done stopped. They reply was always the same. The sent persons head was sent back, decapitated in a box.

Now that history is over I will say this much, most of our world leaders are bloody idiots and blind as hell. They are ether in cahoots with them or they don't know history or they just don't care. I am an American and in my own opinion, about the only leader at this time that is worth a fig newton is Putin. Obummer is a fool and in bed with them, so is Killery ( yes I typo-ed there names on purpose) About the only chance America has right now is if Trump gets elected.

Will say this much as well, if Obumsted doesn't pull a martial law scam ( which will default the States in to a new civil war and that's a pure fact) and Killery the uncaring gets elected pretty much the same thing with the civil war. The people have had enough. This nation can not go down the same road it has been following now for the past 7 years, ( actually it goes way back further but that's a side trail). If you know and have studied history then you know that we are on the same path as the Nazis ( and just to clarify I had family on both sides of that war). History is repeating itself because the people as a whole are uneducated about the truth.

Am I worried about migration and refugees?
Not at all.
Point is: the chances to die in a car accident next week are much higher than being killed by a terrorist. Thats a given fact.
I simply refuse to stop driving car and I refuse to stop living my life.

The problems are not refugees or muslims.
Not refugees kill people, not muslims kill people.... assholes do.
The problem is to figure out who the assholes are. They could pretent to be refugees, they could pretent to be muslims... and they also could pretent to be europeans.

Refugees didnt come to europe because we have such a nice weather here.
They come to europe because in their countries they would be killed in a war or starve. Many of them lost everything... their homes, their families, often even their hope. On their way to europe they sell everything they have to buy a save passage ... and even then they risk their lives (and they know that). Its pure desperation that forces them to such a dangerous journey.
Nobody can blame them.

Everyone has the right for asylum and if you think just a moment about it you will realize that this is something good.
Just imagine your country would be at war and your life is at danger.
Wouldnt you also hope that you find help somewhere?
We would expect help and that alone should be reason enough to help others.
In my eyes every country which denies help should be reminded that it will be treated in exactly the same way if they are in a similar situation someday. Maybe that would be an eye-opener, dunno.
Political correctness.... we try to be political correct even with people that do not return that favor.
Some european countries dont want to help... thats inacceptable. These countries expect help from other members of the EU (financial support) but then when they are asked to help they all of a sudden dont feel responsible. Political correctness aside, nowhere in the EU contracts is written that cherry picking is an option.
Countries which dont want to help should simply get less money from the EU. There should be a simple formula for that... 1000 refugees costs dunno... 10-20mio per year and thats the amount of money the countries which dont take the refugees will get less per year. That money could then be invested to help these refugees (in which ever country they finally will get accepted). Not political correct but fair.

However to come back to the main topic again.
There are millions of refugees. How many of them are dangerous terrorists?
I am pretty sure that this will be a relative low number.
We should not deny help to millions just because of a few bad apples. That would be wrong. That would mean at ALOT more people die.
One problem I see here is this stupid national thinking... you know... when a plane crashes somewhere and the news report "150 people died, amongst the dead are 10 americans, 5 germans,... etc.". OMG germans died... americans died... WTf?!?
When will we finally get to the point where we are simply "humans"?
We should finally stop to value the lives of people depending on their nationality.
People are dying and that sucks. Period!
So, should we stop helping millions refugees just because there is the potential risk that a few hundred europeans die?

In my eyes we should stop thinking about the risks and all the problems that we are facing when we let refugees in.
We have to help them... that is out of question but in long term we are facing economical and cultural problems which would cause the next cascade of negative events.
You cant integrate millions of people with different cultural background into the european society. We didnt manage to get that done in the past decades with only a fraction of that people.
A long term solution can not be passive waiting for the situation to get better.
Currently we are facing a shitload of problems that originally are caused far away from out countries (no matter if we are talking about syria or even turkey -> which also is a problem in europe meanwhile).
You can not passively solve problems or try to sit it out.
It requires to have the balls to go to the source of the problems and get them solved there. And yes... i mean military interventions.
The situation in the middle east will never calm down without force from outside.
If you want peace you have to sent troops there and kick the IS as hard as possible. You have to get rid of Assad, you have to de-militarize the entire region and put Syria and Iraq under an international government (or international controlled government). It makes absolutely no sense to go there, clean up, leave again and notice that the next government is again a religious group that wants to suppress others.
Really I think thats the problem with most approaches in the past... for decades dictators got replaced with other dictators... and even democratic votes lead to exactly the same result.
Only an international government can stabilize this region.
This wont happen in just a few years... decades will have to pass by for these countries to learn.
And most important: a new generation of people have to grow up. One that doesnt know war, one that does not judge about others because of their religion.
Only a long term international operation can bring peace to the middle east.
And the refugees we currently have in europe could return to their countries and with some help rebuild what they have lost.

There is also an economic aspect that comes to mind if you think in long terms.
Currently we have to finance the crisis with the refugees in our countries. That money also could be spent to finance international troops which maintain peace in the middle east. There could be economical support from europe with rebuilding infrastructures, food deliveries, etc.
We have to pay anyway and economy does not only work in one direction.

But thats just my personal opinion.
Not political correct and not an easy decision... in the end its about risking the lives of soldiers down there vs risking the lives of civilians up here.
However, there is a chance that it might work and lead to improvements here and there.
The world wont change if you try to keep the status quo.

Oh... and.... ehmm Clinton.
Since the americans were already stupid enough to vote against every better candidates there isnt much of a choice left.
She isnt sympathic, most likely not even honest... but she is clever enough to do the job.
Trump is a bigmouth which already insulted 90% of the world, went bankrupt 4 times, didnt know that Putin annexed parts of Ukrain (which clearly shows his competence), made many comments which in theory violate human rights, is definitely a stupid liar (that I mention "stupid" is important), has practically the IQ of my dog, told a foreign intelligence agency to steal and publish emails of Clinton (which is very close to treason), has no respect for anything and most likely would drop nuclear bombs if it helps him to boost his ego.
For me its unbelievable that so many people already were willing to vote for that dumbass. But on the other side, the majority of americans believe the world was created in 6+1 days instead of being result of evolution. I am still wondering why god was in such a hurry when he created the world.... and what he has done since then.
Just about the same amount of americans believe that more guns would help to stop the daily killing on american streets.

I like Obama... he is a clever guy with many good ideas (which unfortunately didnt all get realized)

I will only be polite and sat Swat-OP-R8R we will just have to agree to disagree

We here in the military dont really like Politicians, so i think the place we are currently living in can be fixed,but only if the people put effort into actually fixing these problems that are plaqueing us. And if we(the military) have to be sent in, as OP has said, then at least point us to the target.

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ISIS is the result of Al-Qaeda, which is the result of the Mujahideen which was a CIA creation to fight the Russians when they invaded Afghanistan.

So the whole misery started with russia invading Afghanistan.
If that didnt start this whole cycle of violence never had happened.

I dont really get some of the things said about media.
Because the media I read, listen to and watch clearly state if there is an islamistic background once there is official information available (which usually is within 24 hours).
Not a single time Ive seen the media holding something back. Not even in case of the rape in Cologne. And let me repeat it... that were in first place assholes. Go to the Oktoberfest and you will notice more than enough similar incidents done by drunken germans.

And no,I also have to disagree that their religion encourages violence. The Koran does not tell how to be an asshole. Its just a book that unfortunatly leaves room for weird interpretations. The bible btw. isnt any better. Dark middle age, inquisition, countless of wars because of the religion. Your views on christians is just a bit better because they have changed over time because they have lost importance (especially in europe) over the past century.
That however does not change the fact that christians did act as worse as some muslims now.
There are roughly 1,6 billion muslims. If their religion would encourage them to do all these horrible things we all would be screwed by now.
The vast majority of the muslims is living in peace with each other and with us.

many words, i cannot read them all now, but will do it later. here my 2 pents.

the question in the opening post is already wrong. because u completely miss the reason WHY refugees come here. and the answer is simple: because there is war. and why is ther war? because our countries initiated the wars in those countries with mostly muslim inhabitants. first we support dictators, then we support their oppositions, then there is chaos and war and ppl come here and then we say, we dont want the refugees? the solution is simple: we have to stop any interferance, no weapons export to critical areas; build up economical, social and cultural relations. the origin of most of the mess in the world is the banking system, mainly related with the interests. unfortunately most of the ppl dont see the relation between the banksters and the conflicts in the world. this - btw - is one of the main reasons for the war against islam, because this religion is the only one that opposes the interest system of the banks. and btw. most what u think u know about islam and the conflicts in middle east is wrong, our mass media lie about it since many decades.

While u r correct with our influence i fear that its meanwhile too late to stay out of the conflicts. The wars are running and the weapons are already there.
Like i wrote we have to take responsibility and try to fix it. That wont work if we keep supporting local groups, deliver weapons or show military force for a short duration. It requires a longterm solution that allows this region to get a fresh start.

Ok I don't want to make anybody mad but here is some information that some people need to know. One The area we know now as the middle east has been at war for hundreds if not thousands of years. That is a fact. The one group that they hate more them us is each other, thats a fact. You have to understand that in their culture appeasement, and diplomacy is considered a stall tactic by the enemy. Its considered week and they will always see it that way. Its their belief system. They understand one thing and one thing only strength in force. I will agree that all muslims are not to blame, heck even have a couple that I call friends, but the vast majority do believe in wiping out our American way of life and yes your eastern Europe way of life. Yes its a war going on there but you have to look at the majority of the refugees and what they are. They are men between the ages of 25 to 45, prime fighting ages. If they wanted their country, they like the rest of us have done in the past, pick up arms and defend it and run out the ones that are destroying it. If it was mainly old men children and women that where fleeing I could honestly say I would support them and help them but it is not. that is a fact. Only about 10% of the total refugees are in that category of old men, women and children. Ok knowing that one little fact you have to look at it now in this perspective. They know that they can not stand up an actual true army because they know that they can't win that way. ( they do not understand the concept of modern warfare). So understanding that you have to look at it like this. Its an invasion by proxy. That is not my words but the words of my muslim friends here. They understand it, I understand it, why don't others understand it is has me and even my friends confused.

Swat-OP-R8R I do respect you point of view i really do and I wish that it could be solved like you have stated but it can't. None of our country's are truly in the financial position to do that. Hell to be blunt most of our country's are broke and in debt up to our ears as it is. I truly do wish it was different but being a former Army Ranger and actually being in most of the afflicted middle eastern country's I have more of a Unique understanding of what is truly going on. Because of that understanding and knowledge base is why I know what is going on here.

Can and will clarify something here that most of my European brothers don't know. When the second Iraq war was going on and the search for WMD's was in full swing is because we knew that they had them. Why because we gave it to them back in the 1980's in the form of VX gas to fight Iran. Yes i will agree it was a boneheaded move on my nations part as many other boneheaded moves that they have done before in the past was. That was why we went in the second time, and yes reports in the spec ops groups does say that they recovered what was left of it. Now that last part is an unofficial accounting but just word through our spec ops grape vine.

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One The area we know now as the middle east has been at war for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Exactly the same can be said about europe and nearly every other part of the world.
During the past 3000 years there probably hasnt been a single year without war in europe, with the exception of the past 70 years. That however does not qualify us to believe that we are better.

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but the vast majority do believe in wiping out our American way of life and yes your eastern Europe way of life

Some do, of course.
But what about their way of life? Do we respect that? Do we respect their traditions?
I dont think we do... we expect them to live like we do in many cases.
The westerly livestyle has spread all accross the world and many cultures started to lose their identity (not only in the middle east).
For us it is hard to understand that this is a problem. For us this livestyle is normal but as soon we see women with burkas its a no-go.
For us its absolutely ok if the bells of a church make terrible noise SUNDAY MORNING!!!! But the prayer call from a mosque is something we hardly can tolerate.

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but you have to look at the majority of the refugees and what they are. They are men between the ages of 25 to 45, prime fighting ages. If they wanted their country, they like the rest of us have done in the past, pick up arms and defend it and run out the ones that are destroying it.

Thats something I absolutely agree with you.
I can only theorize about the reasons. Maybe these guys are cowards.... maybe its result of stupid political decisions because the right for asylum originally included that families could follow once asylum was granted. I have no idea how that is/was supposed to work but it could have motivated people to leave their families behind and try to reach a country where asylum would be granted just to get the family follow (afterall its still a long and risky journey all across europe).
But thats pure speculation.

I know many different points of view are possible on this topic.
What I know for sure is that everything we did so far didnt work.
We wont be able to solve the crisis with the refugees in europe... thats a fact. That can not work.
All tries to take influence so far failed.
We delivered weapons and supported local groups... and well.. we know that this didnt end well. This is no longer an option.
We had wars... bombing cities... and tried to "liberate" the people down there just to realize that once we leave the countries the whole mess starts again.... worse than ever before.
Seriously, every traditional option failed. And it failed in EVERY country so far.
Modern warfare and all that crap... forget that shit... it didnt allow us to move one step forward to get the problems solved.
What i have proposed is simply something we havent tried yet. A long term solution.
Expensive... hard to get done... yes... but the consequences of doing nothing are worse. The costs for the next decades would be much higher if the problem gets ignored.
So how many weapons do we still want to deliver to local groups just because we think they will fight the bad guys down there (before they turn into the bad guys)?
How many small wars do we want to fight down there just to see that these wars change nothing?
You can not expect different results if you keep doing the same shit over and over again.
Better solutions have to be found.

The proposal to leave the middle east alone doesnt work.
Thats absolutely not going to work.
Fact is, we delivered weapons and the problem remains to exist no matter if we are there or not. Never in history it was a good idea to ignore a problem.
The weapons down there will be used to kill people... and many people will come to europe. Ignorance will not change that.
The killing will not stop just because we decide to leave. Really for that its much too late.

Better proposals are of course welcome.

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and as a side note. Obama sucks. He ran guns across the border and delivered them to Mexican Drug Cartels, pushed a disastrous social health care system that not only forces people to buy health care, but deregulats the health care industry and drives costs through the roof (an IV bag of Saline or sterile salt water can cost upwards of 800 dollars for example)

I cant tell how the health care works in the states... I just can tell that health care in my eyes is something good.
The very first health care was established in germany more than 130 years ago. The USA is a bit late on that.
We cant really complain about it eventhough it is not perfect. It is working... for more than 130 years.
The problems I can imagine in the USA is lobbyism... lack of governmental control and companies abusing the current system. That doesnt make health care a bad idea... it just would require to make adjustments to it until its working as intended.

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He's started numerous wars (Syria, Libya and Iraq) Illegally (you must have Congressional approval in addition to NATO and UN Approval)

he did?
I know multiple US presidents which started wars down there but they had different names.

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He illegally granted amnesty to thousands of young illegal immigrant kids

That makes him a sympathic guy.

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The National Debt was just over a Trillion Dollars
At the time of this reply, attached is where the US National Debt currently stands.

Puhhh, how do I explain that?
National debt is neccessarily something bad. Infact there were multiple times during the past decades where the US practically was bankrupt. There were incidents where the republicans tried to "blackmail" the government at these times.
However, to blame obama for the national dept is a weird arguement because no matter who is president the government has to finance pretty much every shit, starting with employes... military... security... toilet paper, etc.

Germanys national debts went from less than 50 billion to more than 2 trillion in just 20 years. Thats a normal development for nearly every industrial country in the world.Thats nothing unusual.The USA has a benefit over european countries here because the US government can decide to increase the national debt on purpose (which they did 2 time in the past few years) without any real consequences. Infact we are not talking about real money here, we are talking about fictional money (capitalism is crazy).In theory the debts have to be paid back someday. In order to do this the government (no matter if republican or democrat president) will simply increase the depts again... just to be able to pay old debts back. Thats a cycle the USA can do over and over again without that many consequences. In europe its not that easy because we are bound to contracts which clearly regulate at which rate debts are allowed to increase.And now I tell you a secret about capitalism. If debts dont increase the whole financial world would break together. Capitalism does not work without increasing debts.

I do agree with you on many aspects. Here in the states yes the can just raise the national debt ceiling is possible but does have major consequences that you eastern guys don't see. To pay it off they raise tax's which truly doesn't work. It cause hardship and business's fail and people get put on the unemployment line. This will make no since to you but for us if you truly want to make more money for the government you actually lower tax's. Lower tax's means more business's will pop up and in turn means more people are employed, which in-turn increase's actual taxable money income. Yeah its weird but that does work that way. I do agree on the health care stuff just not what we have in place right now. Its a total failed and has drove our healthcare cost's literally through the roof. I do agree with what you say on many points I just see it differently is all.

Only two possible solutions to this current crisis's and nether are truly feasible. One like yours sir but as stated before none of us truly have the money do to it. Its a good idea but not workable. Two and this part I don't really know how to explain except total annihilation. Yes I know thats not feasible but you have to look at their own social cultural and ideology. They are truly and completely incompatible with western social, cultural, and ideology. They can't co-exist because of the huge radical differences in them.

No we just can't leave them alone and walk away because that as you know sir just does not work. I do like many of their cultural stuff. Its cool. I have been blessed to see much of it first hand. The problem is Yes i agree we don't need to and shouldn't try and shove or way of life down their throats. Its not the right thing to do. But in turn they should not do the same thing to us as well. If I moved to Germany or any other place for that matter I would have to assimilate and adapt their culture and life stile's at-least in public. What you do behind closed doors is your own business not mine as long as it does not harm anybody else. Thats just my personal opinion on that but it holds true with the assimilation aspect of it. Problem is many, not all mind you, but many refuse to do that very thing. They expect all this free stuff from our country's while they just have a merry old hat dance on our customs and culture. Personally if you could get them to understand that this amnesty thing is NOT permanent and that yes they where going to go back home, not stay here or there and while you are in these amnesty stated country's to simple do your life stile behind closed doors and at-least fake the parent nations in public this would go much better.

So really anyway you look at this we are all up shit creek without a paddle.