Capitals Need Love, Too (Rework Request)

There are 18 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by (IOC)Wanderer.

  • Disclaimer: This is a request for a significant rework of capital assets. I understand that the mod team is not terribly large, nor are they paid for their time, and understand that these things aren't as easy to complete as they are to propose. I would love to help in any way that I can.


    Over the last week of spending perhaps too much time on Crossfire, I've been quite impressed with the diversity of ships available for piloting. Spread out over the server as they are, they also incentivize people traveling to sometimes forgotten systems to get a unique ship. I think that's great, and I also very much like the way different ships seem to have different roles. The mod only really seems to fall short in one regard: capital ships.




    I recently picked up the Liberty Cruiser in Daedelus, and was somewhat disappointed to discover the ship had essentially not been worked on at all. It lacks all hardpoints (so the damage/projectile speed/range/etc) of the weapons are completely unknown, the lack of the ability to swap different turrets (shouldn't different factions have different damage types?), and the fact that the main gun does no damage. When I say it "does not damage," I don't mean the damage it does is very little, I mean it literally produces no damage on a target Turns out it just doesn't do damage to wrecks or stations. Pair these things with the fact that, even with Armor Upgrade X, the ship is still torn to shred by even the lowest class of snub fighter. I've also seen dreadnaughts that get melted by NPC snubfighters.



    I propose that capital ships should be reworked, and at least given some of the attentions that have generously been afforded to the fighter craft. As it stands, there is no purpose to any cap ship, and they don't fit their role at all. A Dreadnaught should be a veritable fortress, with snubfighter craft pea-shooters glancing off like they weren't even there, leaving bombers, gunboats, cruisers, and other dreads to have the specific role of cap-killers. As far as suggestions go, I think all cap ships (gunboats and above) should be given significantly higher shields, armor, and damage output as well as a serious price increase to help offset how powerful they would be (and how powerful they should be). Also, if they could be given individual hardpoints for the swapping of different factions weapons.



    Capital ships are supposed to lead fleets, smashing through swarms of fighters (that exist to fight other snubcraft, and clear the lanes for bombers to do the heavy lifting), lay siege to planets/stations/other fleets, and survive to do it all again. At present, capital ships are just giant paper targets that look pretty.

    Le silence eternel des ces espaces infinis m'effraie.

    Edited 2 times, last by Promethean Era ().

  • I disagree in every point with you.


    1. the large cap ship guns already have higher range than normal weapons
    2. the cap ship main guns do damage
    3. there are large cap ship weapons from various factions with different types of projectiles and even the small fixed mounted ones resemble the ones of the original house factions
    4. each type of cap ship already has its very specific purpose (some cause wide area damage, others are cap ship killers, others have fast firing weapons against fighters)
    5. the hardpoints fit exactly to the purpose of the different cap ships
    6. there are players which easily could kill a bunch of fighters with cap ships
    7. we dont need ships like a fortress... this just would turn CF into something like discovery and thats absolutely not going to happen.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • I appreciate you taking the time to reply, and not just dismissing the idea out-of-hand. I'll respond in a smiliar fashion for the sake of ease:


    1) The increased range doesn't mean much given how fast fighters can close the distance. Besides maybe fighting NPC cap ships, it doesn't mean very much


    2) Yes, I was completely wrong about the main gun not doing damage. I'd tested it out on stations and wrecks and it did none to those so I erroneously thought they did no damage at all


    3) I wasn't trying to imply that there weren't different types of gun, but that it would make for more fun if they could be swapped between factions ships. An Bretonian cruiser fielding Rheinland weapons, for example. Maybe someone prefers the aesthetics of the Bretonian ship over the Rheinland ones, but prefers Rheinland weapons. Since all weapons seem to be compatible at the fighter level, why couldn't this be possible at the cap ship. I'm not advocating for cross-class (BS turrets on a cruiser) compatibility, either.


    4) I'm not saying they shouldn't have their own specific purposes, just that they should have better survivability. Cruisers are DN killers (by merit of their main gun damage and range) but don't have nearly the armor and longevity, gunboats can be outfitted with large cannons to help take down cruisers, or many turrets to be portable anti-snubfighter platforms, eta...


    5) I meant there aren't any visible hardpoints. I can't equip/unequip (or even see) weapons or shields, this would dovetail well with concern 3


    6) I'm not saying you can't do it. In fact, I don't have trouble bringing down fighters -- if I survive long enough to land a hit. At present, snubfighters still melt certain capships with even small numbers


    7) Nobody is advocating for this server to be "more like" Discovery. If any of us wanted to play on Discovery, we would, but we choose to play on Crossfire in stead for a variety of reasons. I'm not suggesting the cap ships become unstoppable one-man shows so that the server populated exclusively with people flying around in big ships, just that they are made slightly more robust so they can be game changers if they show up. That's one of the reasons I advocate for (significantly) higher prices, maybe a monthly in-game fee to keep them running.




    I'm just spitballing to see if the class of ship can't be tweaked to make them a little bit more enjoyable, or more relevant.

    Le silence eternel des ces espaces infinis m'effraie.

    Edited once, last by Promethean Era ().

  • and what if somebody cant pay such a fee or forgets to pay....
    ship gone? char damaged?



    regarding weapons... as i said... there are factional weapons for the large cap ships
    for the smaller ones it simply is not possible since there are no hardpoint types left we could use
    thats a limitation of the FL engine and unless we get the source code this cant be changed

    signew.jpg


    cfmoddblogo.png5904.png5904.png
    http://www.moddb.com/scripts/topsite.php?ts=4766


    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • Promethean, as for paying a monthly fee or something like that, it has already been discussed and shot down. The only money we take here is for donations to keep the server running and that is given willingly. Besides, I already told u we can only do so much without the source code.

    FOR RUSS AND THE ALLFATHER!

  • and what if somebody cant pay such a fee or forgets to pay....
    ship gone? char damaged?


    I was gonna ask you that, as I don't know the limitations of the engine. I was thinking something like ship can't undock if not paid.


    there are no hardpoint types left we could use
    thats a limitation of the FL engine and unless we get the source code this cant be changed


    Okay, there's nothing to be done about that, I suppose.


    The only money we take here is for donations to keep the server running and that is given willingly


    I was referring to an in-game credits charge.

    Le silence eternel des ces espaces infinis m'effraie.

  • BS/DN weak discussion again? :) :) :) (this was really discussed here on portal heavily)



    My view on this matter: I think they are really strong enough right now like they are (I also think some ppl on server will like if they are less strong ;) ). They can be very devastating in PvE and also in PvP, IF you know use them .. that's it.

  • i've been flying around in capital ships since 1.7. I'll tell you now though, i have very little, if any, experience with anything smaller than an Iteron Battleship. but picking a capital ship is just like picking a VHF: Does it have what you want and will it fulfill your needs


    Each ship has its pros and cons. you have to fly them to find what you like and don't like. Don't like how the Liberty cruiser handles itself, trade up and buy another. The Wiki tells you where to get them.


    A CF capitalship is meant to be a force multiplier. not a super uber duper flying machine of death

  • Promethean Era


    For gunboats & cruisers: map keys to fly them in turret view and learn use strafe (all 4 directions). Difference in 'been' hit is huge.


    BS/DN ... tried find how different are now offered bs turrets?

  • Quote

    I was gonna ask you that, as I don't know the limitations of the engine. I was thinking something like ship can't undock if not paid.


    ... which leads me to the question how a player should be able to earn such a fee when not being able to launch

    signew.jpg


    cfmoddblogo.png5904.png5904.png
    http://www.moddb.com/scripts/topsite.php?ts=4766


    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • ... which leads me to the question how a player should be able to earn such a fee when not being able to launch


    It works on the assumption that the player has lots of cash or has other means of getting it, which is the point of the fee, so that the cap ships, being so powerful, would be scarce and access to them somewhat restrictive.

    Le silence eternel des ces espaces infinis m'effraie.

  • it also means that the rich people simply win battles because they are rich
    people with less money cant afford the battleships and have a major disadvantage in combat then


    this would mess up the complete balance of the mod

    signew.jpg


    cfmoddblogo.png5904.png5904.png
    http://www.moddb.com/scripts/topsite.php?ts=4766


    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • Hmm, hope this conversation didn't stir up too much tension or cause any animosity! I mean no offense when I say this, but Promethean Era (also a new recruit to the RA clan) is still a new player, and like myself (and many new players), when we first start the game, we don't know everything yet, we are still learning, and occasionally make uneducated guesses at things. Not calling him uneducated, but you should have seen my first posts about things, I'm glad OP didn't just say "gtfo here noob". No one take offense please, we're all adults here :) The overall thread seemed very fair/nice/appropriate, just want to keep the peace and everyone happy.


    On that note, here is my take on it:


    1) Each Battleship/Cruiser/DN has certain benefits and weaknesses, I don't know them all, but it definitely takes some trial and error to find a ship you like and can pilot comfortably.


    2) Think of the story mode, even before this mod. Almost every time a Battleship was encountered, there was usually a wing of 5 fighter pilots on your side, and the enemy Battleship had a wing of fighters as well. A battleship/dn/cruiser isn't going to be much use flying solo, it's just a giant target waiting to be shot at with difficult maneuvers. With the ADV battleship turrets, I can kill level 19 ships in like 2 well placed shots, but if I am getting flanked and have to turn around, chances are the smaller ships will win because they are faster, and I keep going in never ending circles =O


    3) So far, even taking my Dreadnought Inquisitor solo, I think I have found a great balance of firepower and ability to kill ships fast. When my clan accompanies me with 5 VHF outfitted with alien guns, power gens, armor class, and shield regens, I can't wait to see how much of a force we will be reckoned with.


    4) Final thought, there are still many things with balancing about the game I am getting used to. I never played another mod, so I am lucky I don't know how other mods work, or I might make stupid suggestion (not saying yours were stupid at all). Since I've only been active on every day for about two months, I think the progress, time it takes, difficulty of flying though open space in huge systems, it all works itself out nicely.


    PS, can a VHF in my group dock on my battleship? If not, there's my suggestion for the day :) i haven't had a chance to try yet or i wouldn't be asking.


    With love,


    Revan <3

    [RA] Revan




    [Republic Alliance]
    (click for system rules)
    A Galactic Smugglers Clan in a galaxy not far away!



  • you see problems where none are
    Promethean made suggestions and i dont agree to that point of few
    i explained why and thats it


    in my eyes not ever idea is a good one
    putting aside that i have many years of experience and alot of knowledge about whats possible, I also try to foresee the consequences of such changes
    e.g. what happens to grounded battleships? How do ppl earn money if they cant launch?
    Lets face it... its best to think about such stuff before changes are done because its pretty hard to correct mistakes when they go live.




    regarding your question.
    We discussed the possiblity to add battleship docking to the mod but decided against it.
    It would be just a feature that isnt used much.... there simply is no real need to use it.

    signew.jpg


    cfmoddblogo.png5904.png5904.png
    http://www.moddb.com/scripts/topsite.php?ts=4766


    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!


  • I am sorry, English is my second language. I think I misunderstood my translation or interpretation of some of the comments. You are right though, you need to think about everything (foresee) how it works in the future and make your decision revolving around that insight, the potential problems, and the possibilities and limitations.

    [RA] Revan




    [Republic Alliance]
    (click for system rules)
    A Galactic Smugglers Clan in a galaxy not far away!




  • PS, can a VHF in my group dock on my battleship? If not, there's my suggestion for the day :) i haven't had a chance to try yet or i wouldn't be asking.


    I've done this before back when the 88Flak server was still active/online. They had a docking system but it was buggy/wierd and caused issues if the players didn't follow directions exactly.
    1 - Player A docks with a Battleship (aka like the Battleship Missouri in New York) controlled by Player B.
    2 - Player A sees a standard inside of a Battleship just like if they were inside the Battleship Missouri.
    3 - Player B just moves around or does what they need to do. Player A is unaffected during the entire journey.
    4 - If Player B dies, Player A suffers no death penalty or item loss, but screen goes to a loading screen and they are respawned automatically at the last official NPC-controlled docking point (station/ship/etc). Player B suffers the usual death penalty.
    5 - Once Player B arrives at their location while 'carrying' Player A inside, then Player A can undock and appear near Player B without issues.
    6 - Player A must be in any vehicle that can normally dock inside a Battleship. Trains and other exotic vehicles would be ineligible to dock with them (dock denied error).
    7 - If Player A undocks at any point while Player B is moving (trade lane, cruise, etc) then they are treated as if Player B died and Player A respawns without penalty back at the last NPC-controlled docking point.
    8 - If Player B has Player A being transported, they aren't permitted to leave space. No docking with any other planets/bases/objects. They get 'dock denied' error until Player A exits out.


    So with all those quirks, it did work pretty well. It was kinda cool to be carried by a friend but it sucked that we were just sitting there while the friend was enjoying all the action/battles/traversal with us staring blankly at a static scene.


    So yeah docking CAN work but it is far more fun to be active/engaged in the game and have active battles and risk of combat damage instead of being carried around.