Political crap

There are 81 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by Michael.

  • I don't know why you keep mentioning Schengen space and stuff more than 1 year old. It's completely off topic and they are good positive changes not related to any of this problem now.


    And no, if somebody forces his way in your house by breaking your window, you kick him out/trap him inside, then call the police to find and arrest him, not say welcome and give him any part of your money, when your daughter barely has enough to eat. If he hurt himself while going through your window, he goes to the hospital first if grave, then to prison anyway. Same as how things were until ONE year ago. This what was changed by germany as flagship, cannot continue, or EU won't continue. Simple as that. From what OP said it is already changing in Germany, so, good. Just let it happen before EU breaks even more.

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  • Main question for you should be: "If changes in germany are possible why does spain have such problems to make changes?"
    The EU does not tell Spain that its not allowed to change laws.
    Its a political problem in Spain.


    The right for asylum and how asylum looks like is matter of the countries. They decide about it.
    They can make adjustments up to the point where human rights get involved (which btw. also was agreed uppon by each country individually).

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  • Because Germany is the leader in this "movement" which started last year, and if the leader back down on their own ideas then the rest can too, until then, anyone else who tries to back down or away gets accused of doing stuff wrong. This is why UK couldn't make adjustements they ASKED for, and had to go for quit before shit goes down even more, they were accused of getting "racist" and even more riots and shit, same for Spain, Italy and etc, not allowed to go back to how it was before this.


    I dont really know why there needed to be pressure to change anything at any country at all. No country just killed people (despite some accusations of italians shooting down the wooden boats people came in and other situations which are just illegal and the guards could be prosecuted). Just because a small country in Asia wanting to come over ? A big price to pay for something that is not related to us.

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  • so 28 (-1) states are too incompetent to say "no"?


    especially the UK which was most successful in negotiating one bonus condition after the next with the EU? (I am really glad that this is over)


    More than enough countries said "no" and defended that position succesfully. Yours was not amongst them.
    Again, blame your politicians
    They sit as much in the EU parliament as all others and have as much rights as all others.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
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  • Influence in the EU parliament doesn't come by just having a seat there, you know that. If Romania was to propose something, it wouldn't even get considered, or a poll to be voted or so. Meanwhile as Merkel pushes to rush the brexit, nobody can say much about it in her face. For example how Spain has more relations with UK than Germany or EU, including territorial ones, which are being considered straight with UK instead of putting it in this "EU parliament".

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  • Michael, you try to compare apples with oranges. You cannot compare refugees with trespassers - too much generalization. Your country has seats in the EU parliament and that gives it influence in decisions. You really we "bad" Germans dictate over others. Maybe we do to a certain extent - but not if it comes to EU wide agreements (such as immigrants, security, etc.). Sure Germany has some weight in the EU, but that has some good reasons - but we dont decide for the entire EU, that is not the principal of the EU.


    And why should Spain bring something to the EU if its not even EU relevant - as negotiating with UK over your territories? That again is in your responsibility - and in case you dont like what is negotiated then blame your politicians. Not ours or those of the EU.

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  • Ive spent some time investigating a bit EU contracts and its permissions.
    Nowhere is there any regulation regarding refugees or any influence of the EU on Asylum politics.
    However, the EU and the countries have a shared competence in matters concerning humanitarian aid. Explicit said is that EU shall not restrict member states from excersing humanitarian aid.
    Yeah, I know... its says pretty much the opposite of what we were discussing here, but its pretty much the closest thing the EU has at least a say. The final decision however is based on the laws of the individual countries.


    It is also stated that all countries have the same rights of representation in the political system of the EU. They they of course have a right to be heard.
    I know, that of course is only the ideal constellation. Effectively countries with similar politics and interests would of course support each other in votes. But from what I can see its been done not only by one specific "faction". East European states clearly decided against what the West European stated had in mind with refugees and equal shared load of the whole problem. They said "not our problem so fuck you" (I really believe that this were the exact words).
    Everyone can make own decisions. Even relative new events are proof of that.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
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    This is ten percent luck,
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  • Again, just because there is some margin of "freedom" for each country, doesn't mean shit wont fall on their head if they do something wrong in germany's view/opinion or the rest of EU in general.


    As I said, let's say they throw everyone out in Spain, same as they are starting in UK with the newly gained freedom by ditching EU, but faster and more effectively. Boats filled and all. Will Germany sit in their corner without seeing a Merkel "strongly condems" the spanish actions ? Or even sanctions for "alledged human rights broken" or whatever. There are a lot of "Merkel strongly" something news lately. "strongly condems" or "strongly hopes" or "strongly opposed", etc.



    Anyway, pretty much all topics are considered, just gotta see how things go in the near future.



    Something else political but not sure if funny enough to put at funny videos:




    What's this ?

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    Edited 2 times, last by Michael ().

  • I am not sure how to respond to that.


    That "margin" of freedom is big enough for local leaders to make good decisions. The limitation start where good morale ends.
    There is a european commission of human rights and your question apparently went into that direction.
    A european country that breaks human rights will of course end infront of a european court because of that and later on also infront the juristication of the UN.
    Violating the human rights is a crime... one of the most disgusting things you can do.


    And no, the UK is not loading boats of people sending them back.
    The amount of refugees in the UK is relative low. And just like in every other country national laws have to be followed concerning Asylum.
    There is no "I dont like your nose judgement".
    One of the main reasons for the Brexit were not the refugees.... it generally were people from other european countries which came to the UK to live and work there. The amount of european citizen which moved to the UK was pretty huge. Those people have to fear loosing their jobs and being asked to return to their country of origin.
    Thats possible for the UK to decide without violating any laws and agreements. Thats something the UK will have to decide about within less than 2 years.
    This btw. also concerns Spain since more than enough people from your country are currently are waiting in the UK for a decision.
    And many young people from spain moved to germany in the last year... the consequences of stupid decision would be heavy.


    "Dropping" refugees from Syria over Aleppo would be violating the human rights.
    A country that would try do that would face political isolation worldwide and also economic sanctions.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • Problem is the streets are not full of syrian refugees, but of african muslims from a different continent who until now were always stopped at the border and dropped back, in good health, which broke no law. And the idea of stopping them from embarking is as stupid as you having a familiar sit inside every neighbour's house, invading their own area and freedom, to make sure none of them is planning on breaking through your window. Sending them back after they break your window is the only option.



    What about that video though ? There are several copies of it, but, is it for real ?

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  • But you know that I explained that already?


    Your government has the right to send the (let me use your expession) illegal refugees back. There is absolutely nothing the EU or any other country can do against that. There might be national laws which need to be changed but thats business of your government.


    I also explained to you that you can not put them on a boat and send them back. That would violate foreign territory and thats something your government clearly wants to avoid.
    Countries are not allowed to operate in national coast regions. That could be considered a hostile act.
    You also can not use charter flights because that requires to name the purpose of the flight at the airport you want to land on. The airport could deny the landing.
    Regular flights however are an option.
    Airports dont ask for any purpose due to existing flight plans. As soon the plane lands, the refugees become the problem of the national airport. With valid ID cards or passports they then would be let into the country (the airport itself is not yet territory of that country -> thats why duty free works).



    That video is correct this way. It is no fake and the translation also is correct.
    You might have noticed that nobody in the background was any surprised about that statement. Reason for that might simply be that they got a corrected translation.


    dautre = other
    d‘notre ("de notre" in long form) = of our
    french is a very fast spoken language, its very easy to mispell something. The context of the speak practically leaves no doubt what he actually meant.
    Ive spent 4 years trying to learn french... and today I am able to say "hi"

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • Well, I do notice the guy behind starts looking to both sides, that woman puts the earphones on, those close to him, but the rest seem as sleepy and uninterested as before, yeh.


    So what's your opinion of what he said ? And why it wasn't on any news ? It's 3 months old.


    Merkel's "open-doors policy" from one year ago is what changed that country's right to send people back, why people say they will come from everywhere, and why they are able to. It's why there are a hundred reports about it and how it's destroying europe, and not only from UK news.
    She openly admitted "flaws" at her policy last months too, so obviously that shows that no matter her role or "juristiction"/power theoretically unable to do such change in EU, she is responsible of it directly.


    And apparently there are or were daily cases of migrant violence in Germany, like axe attacks and other similar "minor" attacks 4 times in one week, close enough to daily.
    But well... there are as many attacks against refugees too, in Germany: PressTV-Germany: Refugee attacks national ‘disgrace’
    No wonder you called them mobs.

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    Edited 7 times, last by Michael ().

  • The stuff he said was about the Brexit, it was on the news, you can still watch it in full length on the net and you can read the transscript.


    The open-doors policy didnt change any rights. Infact that were just statements which do not even mess with already existing laws and regulations.
    That Merkel is responsible of some stuff is true... that everything she did was wrong is not true. She did a decision which was morally correct. If more european countries would have showed support then we wouldnt have a problem at all. The problem in my eyes is just alone that only a few countries decided to help while the others said "not our problem". These countries didnt understand what the word "Union" means and that the countries of the EU equally should support the EU insteads of only taking the advantages.
    East european states mostly refused to help... and that are the countries which get the highest finanicial support from the EU. When these countries can get money they are there. When they are supposed to help its all of a sudden not their problem.
    In my eyes the payments to these countries should be reduced and the money instead should be sent to Spain, Italy and Greece as compensation for dealing with the crisis. That would be fair and in my eyes in such a way the EU has to change.


    To say that we have daily cases of migrant violence in germany is wrong.
    We had ONE week with mulitple cases (2-3 actually) but generally is pretty calm here. That were not even current refugees... so... well.
    Statistically more violence and crime caused by german citizens.


    There are attacks against refugees done by stupid germans.... that is true. In most cases houses were burned down before refugees arrived there.
    Such crap usually happens in specific eastern regions of germany where neo-nazi managed to influence the population.
    Surprisingly in other regions of the country where ALOT more migrants and refugees are living (partly for decades) there is no such hate.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • ...
    Merkel's "open-doors policy" from one year ago is what changed that country's right to send people back, why people say they will come from everywhere, and why they are able to. It's why there are a hundred reports about it and how it's destroying europe, and not only from UK news.
    She openly admitted "flaws" at her policy last months too, so obviously that shows that no matter her role or "juristiction"/power theoretically unable to do such change in EU, she is responsible of it directly.


    Well as far as I know Germany and Austria were opening the borders for some migrants fighting to survive in Hungary. We didnt opened the borders of EU, not from Spain, not from Italy or any other country in the EU. AGAIN, we didnt open the borders, they were already open - for years meanwhile. But we violated the Dublin Agreement that says: Immigrants have to be send back to the country they arrived in Europe. Which is a stupid agreement in my opinion. So in one way we took of the burden for Hungary and now am the bad guys in Europe to try to help them. Clearly is that these actions have been seen from many immigrants and they interpret it as having an invitation to come. But that was not was our chancellor was saying and doing.
    Our chancellor also said that with the knowledge of today, she would make things different, but she would always have decided to help in the situation the immigrants in Hungary were at that time. Now that violates European Agreements, but not helping is also violating International Agreements. Still i dont see how our chancellor has any guilty in the current situation and how she is guilty for the misbehavior and misdeeds of other countries.


    I strongly agree with OP here that the situation would be much better if the Europe would be more united in all this. But it isnt - which also proofs the fact OP said. Mostly the eastern countries open their hands if they receive financial and economical support from the EU; but they deny the same in return. Thats falling back to old habits that brought us some of the conflicts in the past. I also vote to reduce the support to those countries in the extent they deny the united support in europe and give this support those countries who really require it (like the southern countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece).

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  • So what's the explanation of that message, of other planets ? That he was "confused" ? Even though he reaffirmed his words later once. Then silence.


    Old topic:
    From what I see your main problem are Western countries that are saying fuck EU. UK is western, and Spain which is ALSO unhappy with how germany seems to want to hurry UK's removal instead of calling to reconsider like France. Merkel also called to reconsider though, that's positive. It is to be noticed that the refugees deny staying/living in the eastern countries in the first place, they do go THROUGH those countries to reach the rest of Europe (as they dont travel by plane) but prefer NOT to stay there themselves. Afterall, that half of a working german's pay (for doing nothing) is double than a worker's pay in some of those east countries, for example Turkey or Ukraine, etc.


    If instead of trying to enforce this open-doors policy with your influence in EU, whoever merkel or anybody else in germany made it, would put it to a democratical vote in EU Parliament as OP said, all countries would be REQUIRED to help, as much as they can, proportionally. This policy didn't go through such voting though as the numbers would probably end in a "NO", because the policy does not seem to filter Syrian refugees from... Afghans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Albanians, Senegalese etc, and then the even less "refugees", from Africa, like Gambia and so. Open doors are open for all (which yes breaks laws related to holding borders), as well as any kind of trash. Unbalanced. Neithe closed doors like UK but neither wide open like Germany. Balance has to be found.


    It IS a migrant crisis wether you want to see it or not, as they are not just visiting, they came to STAY. (counting most are migrants not refugees) Millions coming in every year and how many Germany deports ? 6000 a year, or a month ? (number seems to be 6000 but forgot on how much time) Your grandsons will not finish deporting them in 50 years, especially as they will be proportionally islamic, be real when near to 10% of EU's pop is becoming migrant (outside of EU) and even more coming, how is this not a damn migrant crisis. And it's a huge setback in EU progress of any kind, not just economic.


    Edit:

    Quote

    She did a decision which was morally correct. If more european countries would have showed support then we wouldnt have a problem at all. The problem in my eyes is just alone that only a few countries decided to help while the others said "not our problem". These countries didnt understand what the word "Union" means and that the countries of the EU equally should support the EU insteads of only taking the advantages.


    Quote

    I strongly agree with OP here that the situation would be much better if the Europe would be more united in all this.


    I agree she did a morally correct decision but incorrect handle of the situation as well as lack of democratical voting and agreement on the situation after analyzing it, giving space for misuse of this decision with terrible results. This decision was ONLY for Syrian refugees.
    In the rest of EU's opinion, the situation would be much better if Germany and related would not take actions by themselves without the agreement of the rest of EU or EU Parliament, there would be no "migrant crisis" just " controlled measured SYRIAN refugees income" at most, no break up or sided countries in EU, and no "bad countries" for not doing what Germany wants due to being new to some life hardships those "bad countries" know from experience.


    Where is the word of "Union" when Germany and close links countries decided to act by themselves without the rest of EU ? Since when can SHE decide and the rest HAVE to obey ? NO. The problem are not the ones not following these few countries, but these few countries acting without being in unison/union with the rest 28(-1), and then try to push the rest with their influence (which cause a break and more distancing between sides). Without even asking democratically if EU wants this or not, to give their VOTE. This is technically bypassing the EU parliament, an act normally counted as illegal and prosecuted if a smaller country did it.


    Late edit:
    Not sure whats with Hungary being mentioned earlier but it done a referendum and voted 98% NO to EU migrant quotes on October 2. Not too many even went to vote as this is an idiotic simple answer to all Eastern countries who held every asian incursion over the course of history, Huns, Tartars, Arabs, etc. Without them, we wouldn't be either latin or germanic, but something asian.
    Austria on same page. https://www.google.es/url?sa=t…g2=iUlgDlrsyzsLuREkUPOGKw
    or
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/au…egal-migration-1474740414


    If it asks for subcription, there's a copy of that same "pledge" here (as lots others, just googled):
    Austrian leader: EU's outer borders must be better protected - HeraldCourier.com: News

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    Edited 19 times, last by Michael ().

  • are you kidding me here?


    I explained that stuff in detail before.
    Meanwhile I get the feeling that you either dont want to understand or cant understand what I wrote.


    I give detailed explainations and just a few posts later you start with the same crap again.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • Yes, even though we agree on some points (moral ones), we disagree with the rest... just different PoV I think.


    There's a post I found around one of the news about EU borders, as of the top voted, that I also, partially liked.

    Quote

    If the EU collapses, it will be Merkel's fault. Merkel made a unilateral decision for HER country ... yet because Germany is part of the EU, that decision was effectively made for EVERY country in the EU. There was NO consultation with other leaders ... and the Muslim hordes are now over-running Europe ... invited in by a woman who threw REASON out the window and had the hubris to think SHE knew what was best for the "new world order."


    Yes, again, the only one at fault for betraying/breaking the "union" is the one who acts unaccordingly with the rest of the team, not the rest for not following the first one, currently seen as the black sheep. EU is losing more economic power/stability than what Germany brings, or brought.


    Apparently the balkan bottleneck is nearly stopped now which is good news. Least they all literally circle around Romania lol the maps are funny.

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    Edited once, last by Michael ().

  • That becomes boring Michael. Merkel's fault if others are too lazy to do something. Merkels fault that other countries dont manage to control their borders... Sure. On which planet do you actually live?
    Dunno how often we repeat that stuff here. What happens in your country and with your borders is up to the decision of your politicians or state leaders - as long as its within the EU laws. No one opened any border - thats just wish thinking. As you might have noticed they were open over decades meanwhile. A german decision to help immigrants in Hungary really opened the borders in Spain - is it that what you are trying to explain here?


    Also the comparison with refugees and our own houses limps. You cannot compare your house with a state border. The arguing you are following here is exactly those of the EU despots. Its finger pointing and not really constructive, it doesn't help to solve problems - which you have to seek for a solution in your own country btw.


    Is it right that Germany has some saying in the EU, probably yes, considering that we are a payer among a few others in the EU. Money that is earned in Germany to the wealth for the entire union. Does our vote count more than those of other states. I dont think that it does if it comes to EU wide decisions. I haven't read about it in detail, but i assume that each country has 1 vote.
    We are rushing the UK for the Brexit? Interesting that we have to do that, although the British people did vote for it. Actually they should rush to finally go out. It was a people decision - not ours. We have to respect what they have elected for and it would be better for the democracy if they finally would decide to leave. Everything else is just lying to voters and ignoring their voice/vote. They wanted to be out, so they shall live with the consequences. AND please dont pull over the fault again to Germany.


    It really starts to worry me, that those of your thoughts get more and more usual these days. Its seeking for easy answers for complex situations. Mentioned it already - finger pointing, incompetence of local politicians (that also refers to german ones). Raking hate and racism and dont be able to find compromises and being open to new and different things. If that will be the EU then good night. Cant believe that people fall back into such negative thinking.

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  • its not a matter of different points of views.
    its just that you cant and dont want to understand how the EU and political decisions work.


    Rules and laws are not a matter of POV.
    Responsibilities of local governments are not matter of POV.



    Based on the founding priciples of the EU Merkel did nothing wrong.
    Merkel is also no responsible for the Brexit.... you can blame Cameron for that as he was the idiot calling for a referendum in hope to save his political career (which obviously didnt work well).
    You also can not blame the EU or Germany for economic problems of your country. Those are result of decades of mismanagement of your politicians. The EU and with it Germany are where your country gets money from each year to deal with your local problems.


    I explained in detail what abilities and rights your country has in the EU.
    I also explained in detail what happens if you all of a sudden want to put ppl on a boat and throw them out of the country. I explained why that isnt possible and which other possibilities exist.
    To a degree I explained economic stuff to show you that not everything is like it appears to you.
    I explained that stupid video and gave clear answer about that translation.


    Your POV and your wish to throw people out would cause more problems to your country then it could solve.
    The people in the UK also had a weird POV (based on false information) and now they have to pay the prize.
    It was their decision. And no, Germany is not pushing them out.
    It was their decision... and eventhough the referendum was non-binding the British government clearly said to go for that Brexit. There is no way back anymore.
    Now its just important to get it done fast because millions of people (british people which live and work in the EU and EU people which live and work in Britain) and companies are right now hanging in mid-air, not knowing what to do. That situation costs alot of money, ten-thousands of jobs and constantly causes risks at the stock markets (which in the end puts millions of jobs in europe at risk).
    Thats why german politicians (at actually many others from other european states) want a fast Brexit.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!