Elite Dangerous - Horizons

well, thank you
i just think that ill skip that
reading through guides that tell me how much can go wrong is not very motivating

Reddit these days - Imgur

situation on reddit

rofl

Ok
I gave this game another chance this weekend and clearly can say that it wont get another chance from me.

Really this game is absurd.
Putting aside that on many stations I cant find missions anymore the previously existing problems with the missions and their value have not been fixed.
The only change I see is that the job board takes even longer to load and has a more unneccesarily complicated layout.

Accepting missions is like commiting suicide.
I have done so and was interdicted 5 times on these 2 missions.

But even if you are not on a mission and even if your cargo hold is empy the NPCs interdict you and open fire for no reason.

After that I tried to take a look at this engineers stuff.
It took me only a few hours to travel to one of the places where I can find an engineers contact and uppon reaching that system i was instantly interdicted by an elite NPCs which required roughly 4 seconds to destroy my fully equipted pyhton.
This game offers no chance to avoid interdiction any longer and it allows not even to run away or fight back. My ship exploded right after my weapons went online.

I couldnt do missions anymore this weekend... and I couldnt even check out the engineers crap coz this game is so imbalanced meanwhile.
The only thing I achieved was to lose my ship and millions to pay the insurance (money that I probably never get back considering the state of this game).

My decision stands... when I play a game I want to have fun... and not geting frustrated and demotivated by it.

I have a very similar python
but thats not the point and infact that should not be the point because such ships are with all the A-grade equip expensive enough
however, a player that constantly gets killed cant even get such equipment... not by regular gameplay.

even if with a specific high-end setup ships become durable enough to survive a combat a bit longer... every player first has to get to that point which isnt possible
I see alot of arguementation online which goes like "you have to have this setup and that stuff and then its easy" but people generally dont get to that point
I see people posting vids showing how they kill other ships using... dunno... cobra etc. and claim how easy this game is and that the people which complain are just stupid noobs.
Yes... of course... I can also take a cobra kill a few eagles and aps.
Point is that these people never show how it is to use other ships like freighters. And of course these people only show how to fight in a fully equiped combat ready ship that by default is full of boosters instead of having a normal equipment layout with cargo hold or other equipment.

Sorry... but this game has such a big potential which gets minimized to limited combat layout ships.
90% of the ships in the game are not used by the players.
98% of the systems of the game are empty because the players exploit the only few sources of halfway good money-making.
In all the time Ive been playing the game I have seen only ONE good trade route in the game (which had btw. 20 times the profit of every other trade route in the game).
Same can be said about the ships... there is no balance.
Ships only get more expensive... but not better.
Fact is that people still use sidewinders or cobras in combat (which are pretty much the start ships).
There is little to none motivation to get other better ships in this game.
Especially since the more expensive ships are either too slow to fight, too heavy to travel large distances or are limited to dock only at specific stations (not to mention that the large ships also take more hits due to their size in combat).

All starting players should be told not to buy any other ship than their starter ship (sidewinder) because the game balance is so terrible that its simply not worth to invest money in other ships.
I have a python.... I have to pay +7mio insurance when I die.
Even in systems where I have good reputation I mostly see only trade missions with a value between 50-100k. So lets take the average of that -> 75k credits.... so I need to finish ~100 missions to compensate the insurance costs if I die just ONCE. I was interdicted and attacked 5 times on just 2 trade missions.
The chance to die more than once during 100 mission runs is incredible high.
Thats the balance of the game.

And please dont tell me anything about doing combat in res zones instead or traveling to a specific system which is the only one where it is worth to trade.
Thats not the point of the game.
Point of the game is to do what ever you want, where ever you want.
If you want to explore the galaxy then exploration should be reward enough to be worth it.
If you want to trade then trading should be possible anywhere in the game and rewarding enough to cover the costs.
And in case of combat the balance between the ships should really be getting reconsidered in order to have a good motivation to invest money into new ships.

The game itself holds such a strong potential which is totally wasted by stupid balancing choices.
It doesnt surprise that reviews for this game get worse and worse on the net.
On steam the majority of reviews is negative.
Other reviews of game magazines give it only 6/10 reviews which is pretty terrible.
Many players have stopped playing it... many are upset with the way how things are done.
ED is a game with fairly good game environment... great graphics... but poor balancing and pretty much no long term motivation.
Really there is no long term motivation... there is nothing to achieve... there is nothing really worth working for.
Its not even worth to work for having a 200mio credits ship coz 300k credits fighter will destroy it with ease.

Ive played pretty much every space shooter/space sim available. Some of them certainly took time to get into and some of them were pretty hard to win... but none of them were frustrating or demotivation like Elite Dangerous.
After a hard working day I want to enjoy a game... I want to jump into it and do whatever is available to do there. I dont want to get frustrated because that game fails to motivate me... i dont want to get frustrated because I potentially lose more than I am able to earn... I dont want to get frustrated because the game pushes me into a direction I simply dont want to go.

The game has 400 billion stars so visit... you can trade, explore, fight, mine, scavenge wrecks... etc.... there are so many possibilities (in theory) but the game balance ruins everything.
A giant galaxy with 400 billions stars.... 100k light years in dimension... and you as player are doomed to do tiny 10-20k lightyear jumps between the systems.
10.000 jumps from one corner of the galaxy to the other... if thats not demotivational.
Even more demotivational is that at least 99% of the star systems are empty.

In theory you can do so much in this game... but thats only the theory. In real you are limited by the ships.... not only when its about the tiny jump distances.
I as player would assume and expect that more expensive ships hold benefits for me.
Fact however is... that the more expensive ships mainly have negative effects.
1. High insurance costs if you die.
2. Hard to maneuver due to their higher mass.
3. Extreme high costs for equipment.
4. In nearly every case lower jump distances and higher fuel costs.
5. Higher repair costs.
6. Very often power problems (ED is probably the only game which has ships that consume more power than they can produce)
7. Bigger size = bigger target = more vulnerable in combat.
8. Inability to dock everywhere.
9. Other negative effects due to the ship mass.
10. Limited equipment slots on many of the more expensive ships.

By default I would assume that more expensive ships offer benefits and would be better.... but not in ED.
Of course... bigger ships can carry more cargo... but if that means that you can not dock at specific stations anymore your trading options get limited and you probably earn less.
Yes... you can still find statons to trade with.... if you can reach them without getting killed because you are too heavy to fight back.
If you can trade at all coz trading is only lucrative in specific regions which are full of "pirates" and npcs which interdict you (which you can no longer avoid).
What about better guns?
Yes... of course such more expensive ships can carry bigger guns.
But since these more expensive ships are too heavy to turn fast enough you most likely never get the enemy infront of you to fire these guns.... or you dont have enough power to make use of these guns. You have to use weapon combinations which are "economic". With other words your ship can in theory use the best large guns available but you have to use large guns which consume less power. And in the end you deal as much damage as the tiny fighter ship you had before.

You would assume that bigger and more expensive ships have other benefits such as better engines. But nope. Not even that.
You pay hundreds of millions for a ship just to realize that you can not travel around anymore coz the jump distances are aweful.

There is practically no good reason to invest in a new ship in ED.
You can get the best ships right at the beginning of the game (pretty much the cheap starter ships... cobra... asp).
Everything after that is just wasted money.

The game could be so great if there would be a better balancing. A reason to get better ships...
But the way it is the ships limit the entire game.

It is really frustrating that there is so much you could do in this game but because of the ships you simply cant.
You limited by the poor balance and also by the poor design of the equipment layout.
The game limits you more than enough by not allowing you to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Best example is that you require specific equipment for specific tasks... so if I am in my trading ship and see a good mining zone I probably have to travel a few hundred ly just to get a mining laser and refinery etc... and then travel back to hopefully find that mining place.
I can also not say "today I want to do some trading in that game and tomorrow Ill go and explore". That would require me to switch to a different ship with different equipment. A ship that is probably parked 1000 ly away.

If they announce an important combat on the launcher today I most likely would never make it to this combat because I first have to travel in tiny jumps all around the galaxy to find my combat ship. And that combat ship (just like all combat ships) has even shorter jump distances. There are fighters with 7ly jump distance. Thats in many cases not enough to reach even the next star system. If you are in such a ship you are doom to come to the battle when all action is over for hours already.

Really the balancing of the ships and the overall balancing of the game sux.
Other games do that much better.
FL does.
Buying the next better ship really makes a difference. You invest more money but you also get a better ship.
Also in all games of the wing commander universe the balancing is alot better.
Same goes for all games of the X universe.
A better ship makes a difference there. There is a motivational reason to earn money and buy new ships.... there is a long term motivation.
You can see this very clearly in the X universe (all of the games).
You start in a tiny ship and have to work your way up. You start trading... you make money... you get better equipment... eventually a better ship.
Its a slow progress but each step upwards is an improvement. There are still better and worse choices you can make when buying ships but generally there is a good reason to buy a new ship.

ED completely fails to motivate players when its about ships.
People will do their combats always in their cheap ships and most ED ships never will get any real attention.
And which idiot would design a space ship where even the best A-type reactor that fits into the ship can not produce enough energy for the weapons to fire?

I am sorry that you see it this way.

You must think that I am a complete asshole that isnt giving this game a chance.
Well, I think I gave this game a chance.... I invested the money for the main game.... and later when people told me that it is worth to get horizon I also went for it.
I played it for a good amount of time.
Actually I starting to play the game because I wanted to find a game for the players of this community.
That was my main motivation to buy the game and keep playing it for a good amount of time while I actually had alot of other work to do.
I had high hopes in terms of finding a game that is worth to play with the people here. A game that many of us could enjoy.

But lets face it... apparently nobody really was interested enough to make that come true.
We started to play about at the same time.... you, mole, huor and I.
At that point I thought "hey, why not... give this game a chance. We can play together and eventually build up something thats beneficial for the community".
That was my initial motivation to play the game... and in other games before (Starlancer, Freelancer, Helbreath, Star Trek Online... etc. ) this was good enough to create something impressive that many others could enjoy.
My motivation is not necessarily bound to the game. I havent been playing on the FL server for ages and still I am its most devoted supporter. It takes an extreme level of motivation to keep doing what I do for CF and FL. And eventhough STO developes into a direction I dont like I am online each day because of the fleet and the remaining people there (and of course also because I still like the general idea behind the game). I dont give up lightly.
I criticize STO alot more and harder than ED.... and the Crossfire mod is the prime example of what I criticize on FL.
So dont even think that I react any different on ED than I would on anything else.

I have the feeling you take my critcs personal.
I have criticized a game... its developers and their decisions. Not you.
I think these critics are justified. You dont have to agree to them if you dont want.

Unfortunatly I am in the situation where I am desperately looking for ways how to keep this community running in future. I actually dont have the luxury to waste my time with something that doesnt pay off.
ED would have been an option. But in the end nobody really showed interest in it.
Eden Rising | Elite Dangerous group
I didnt start to work on that for no reason. Like I said... I had high hopes in it.
But... well... wish thinking. An idea which never got off the ground because nobody even bothered to try.

I have to look for a different solution, one that is beneficial for the portal and its members.
One that really gets the chance to get done.
In ED I absolutely didnt have the feeling that the few of us were really interested to play together and achieve something for the community.
Huor dropped out, I was trying to find the motivation to keep playing despite the limited time... and you and mole... dunno... you probably found your way.
It is the way it is.
I wish you the best no matter what you do.
It never was my intention to ruin it for you. So probably my decision to drop out aswell is the best that could happen.

I have to take care of the portal and its future and if its not in ED then it must be somewhere else (eventough I dont have the slightest idea where and how).

Ive just one additional remark:
Your tries to help were not very helpful.
Posting links of your builds are no help at all because:
1. either I have a similar build which means that your suggestion wouldnt be an improvement
2. or I have a worse build... which in the end means that I dont even have the resources to adapt to your suggestion
Next to that is your suggestion not even something I want to adapt to for the fact that I was complaining about NPCs and balancing... not about my ship.
The only time I got any useful help in this game was when a guy wanted to kill me if I dont join his powerplay faction. I didnt die, I didnt join a faction but that day I learned alot of stuff. That incident was the best experience I had in ED and at the same time the longest and most constructive interaction with another player.

And that is something i cant do. I cant spent time with other groups while knowing that the group which matters (this portal) suffers or at least doesnt get the attention it deserves. That in my eyes just wastes valuable time in an environment that still isnt working well.

I simply disagree with you on the stuff about ships and balancing.
I completely disagree with you about that.
You keep trying to tell me that I have to have specific loadouts to play correctly.
I told you that I have such loadout and it still does not work. Before I took a break from that game I made sure that my python has very good equipment... fitting exactly for the job that I am trying to do.
That hasnt changed... I still have that python and it isnt a ship with crap equipment.
My equipment clearly cant be blamed for the crap that happened.
But like I already mentioned in a post before... if it would be due to the equipment then this game simply wouldnt allow in its current state to improve that equipment by doing missions coz you cant survive long enough to make money.

Ive spent a few hours trying to figure out whats wrong.
I have found articles describing that players die in masses. I got to read that NPCs attack for no reasons pretty much everywhere in the game. I got to read official comments from the devs stating that they really have designed the NPCs to cheat. NPCs can instantly interdict at suns right after you spawn. NPCs had these new weapons (which meanwhile got remove again). NPCs have unlimited ammo and other benefits over players. NPCs have advantages when interdicting (which explains that I am no longer able to avoid that shit).
NPCs attack without being provoked... they attack even when I have no cargo.

I dont have to be surprised when I get killed in my python within just 3-4 seconds.
If I go to a combat zone now I can guarantee that I clearly need longer to kill a python NPC even with the best weapons I can mount on my ship. In that time I probably manage to shot down its shields but thats it.

Believe it or not but what happened to me did really happen. 3-4 and i was dead... not longer.
I had time to select the target and decide between running or deploying weapons and when the weapons were deployed the show already was over. My python is not build of lousy equipment. It took me ages to equip it with the best stuff you can buy for it.
If i put even more defense stuff into it I wont have any cargo space left.

The game is in a terrible state if you ask me and all over the net you get to see articles with negative feedback.
The developers clearly should decide what they want. Cheating npcs or players.

You are right about the internals of the large ships... you can put in more... but that does in no way compensate the negative effects.
And the best arguement I can bring up is that the majority of players decides to stick to the small cheap ships. If its worth to use the big ships you would see them everywhere.
But you dont.

For me it was to difficult to play. Don't have a joystick and played with keyboard and mouse. Which was OK to travel through systems and trade. But absolutely not for fighting. And the changes where you got interrupted by npcs sooner than later were frustrating. Next to that did I find it difficult to find a place to stay and get involved. So many systems, so lot to discover and 95% empty space. Haven't had a clue really what's going on and where.

Too less was explained and the factions didn't made it easier. Too much of them and I haven't found any valuable source of information about advantages and disadvantages of joining this or that faction.

I really like the graphics and the sense of exploring, but for that it is just too big space and too less is explained well enough. And finally they changed it to the worst, I lost interest and finally my password to login.
Playing for me is something else - and having fun plays a big role, which this game wasn't any longer able to satisfy.
Would have wished also that Eden Rising could develop into something else

Yes, information really is an issue in this game.
I mentioned this in an earlier review where i wrote that not even the fundamental gameplay aspects are getting explained.

There is the arguement "you learn to play the game by playing it".
By default it is not a bad arguement as this is valid for pretty much every other game aswell.
But ED is extremely terrible introduced to the players.
The very few tutorial missions are not well done.... infact they just tell you to do something without really explaining how to and why. There are a bunch of tutorial videos on youtube that are probably meant to fill that gap.... but actually no... they dont really manage to do that. They leave you behind with more question than before.
The PDF handbook is great: "group play is to play with a group". Thats a typical description in there. Meaningless, pointless and with 0 useful information.

This game really would require a conclusive tooltip help in the game to understand how stuff works.
It pisses me off that for every shit I have to switch to my browser and google for information.
I expect to get information about the game in the game, not on 3rd party websites where people also just guess what is meant.

The problems already start the interface which isnt really well explained.
Just alone ship statistics are so confusing (eventhough it meanwhile got slightly better).
Minimal Mass
Optimal Mass
Max Mass
Intregty
Min power consumption
Power consumption
max power consumption

all the different equipment types and classes where higher classes/types can be better but might not be better

No real explaination what means what, what is good... what is not good.... what to avoid... what to aim for.
I was online again yesterday and had a first visit at an engineers base as I wanted to see what it is about.
But first things first.
I havent played for some time and when I updated the game and launched I had 4 messages in the games mail menu.
"Hello, bla bla bla... come to find me... location is on the map.. bla bla".
If this were real mails in my regular mail box.... I would have instantly moved them to the spam folder.
There was no information what these 4 messages meant... there was not even an information that this was about engineers at all. There was not even mentioned the purpose to meet someone somewhere... and where this "somewhere" actually is.
Yes it was told that I could find it on the map.
Lovely... I have a large amount of markers with different icons on the map and I cant tell which icon means what (there simply isnt a description). Now some of these markers must belong to the messages... it is not even possible to clearly identify which message belongs to which marker. Even if I idently the correct icon on the map... there is no way to really tell which system belongs to which message... and where in these systems I actually have to look for the specific contacts.
Btw. the only way for me to know that the 4 messages belong to engineers was because I previously googled some information about engineers.
To shorten it a bit... I went to one of the systems and found the engineers base (with the help of google) just to realize there that I have to unlock the engineers features on that base first by providing 1 meta alloy.
So I went all the way to that base to be told that I cant use it.
The initial message which invited me to that base could have a line it "oh and if you decide to visit us, bring some meta alloys with you to get access to our services". No that information was missing.
I flew 500ly for nothing.
Meta alloys... Ok I decided to get the meta alloys... so I had to ask my old friend google wtf meta alloys are and where to get them because thats the next information this game isnt willing to provide.
28 jumps to the Maia system and 28 jumps back.... hoping not to get killed on that travel.
Without google you are completely lost in that game.

Back at the engineers base I unlocked the engineers services.... just to be completely overwhelmed by something.... I dont really know how to describe it.
There are categories of equipment types you can select and in there you can select the equipment of your ship.... and there you seem to have an overview of available blueprint for upgrades.
Each blueprint has a more or less confusing description telling vaguely what it will improve and at the same time which side effects that upgrade will have.
Confusingly the description text ALWAYS mentions negative side effects while a bit lower in the statistics overview of some upgrades there is written "this upgrade only has positive effects".
What?!?
Which of these claims is the lie?

Well, ok... for each upgrade there appears to be different quality levels? Dunno... probably that are quality levels... the information about that is vague.
The first "quality level" appears in blue which probably means that it unlocked while all others appear in orange (colors might be different -> I have different hud colors) and seem to have a lock icon next to it.
How to unlock these other "quality levels" is unknown.
Here I can only guess since absolutely no information available.... and I would guess that you first have to produced a level1 upgrade to unlock the level2 upgrade.... a level2 upgrade to unlock a level3 upgrade.
But that of course is pure speculation because an instruction or info text is missing.
I could be right with that guess or I could be wrong.

Each blueprint has some weird statistics.
There are 4 bars which probably represent the performance of that upgrades (thats also just a guess). On these 4 bars there are colored markings (bars on that bars)... their meaning is not known to me.
And there are statistics shown in numbers.
e.g. there is stuff like "energy efficiency" (or something like that) represented by positive or negative numbers (I have no idea if positive is good or if negative is good)
or
on shield upgrades... there are min capacity in %, capacity in % and max capacity in % ranging from 50% to 150%
WTF does that mean?
Can nothing in this game be clear on something?
"produce this upgrade to increase your shield strength by 5%" -> that would be a clear information

Last but not least these upgrades have to be manufactured (dunno how, of course there is no description).... which requires upgrade materials (right?). It would be awesome if this game could provide any information on how to obtain such upgrade materials... but it doesnt.

Pretty much in all aspects of the game you are left in the dark.
My description of my experience with this new engineers addon is representative example to what a new player would face in pretty much all other areas of the game.

And please dont get me wrong here. I dont expect that a game explains everything and every detail in a way that the most retarded person on this planet could understand.
I most certainly dont belong into the category "stupid". You know.... I can understand technology, physics, math, psychology, politics, economics, multiple languages, coding and intuive designs very well.
Not knowing something, has never prevented me to learn it.
But I have serious problems to understand how stuff in ED is supposed to work and what the developers actually mean. There is no clear structure in this game. There is no clear information that allows you to understand what specific values mean.

If I would design that game lots of stuff would be different.
The balance of course would be somewhat more userfriendly.
Game mechanics would get detailed ingame help.
In case of the map there would be a detailed icon legend and a description... maybe even an interactive tutorial when the map is opened for the first time.
There would be tooltips on stats.
There would be mini-tutorials that pop-up the first time you try something new.
There would be help markers on missions telling you how missions are meant to be played.
There would be an equal balance between combat, trading and exploring rewards.
There would be a group chat. (thats a fundamental part of every online game)
There would be a system owner registration for groups/factions.
The already existing grind would be more rewarding (with ranks which actually have a meaning and bonuses).
Ship switches wouldnt be so painful.
Better ships never would perform worse than your last ship. Really I consider this major shit that in order to buy a 10mio ship you actually need to have 50mio credits coz without the best equipment every ship currently is shit.
e.g. you have a lvl1 ship (I keep this example simple) with specific equipment and you switch to a lvl2 ship with exactly the same equipment (transferal) then the lvl2 ship should not perform worse than the lvl1 ship. It should perform at least equally with exactly the same loadout. Different loadout is a different thing.
Ten thousands of players did regret having bought a new, better ship because their new ship has costs them all their money and then performed like shit with the result that on their first combat they died, couldnt afford the insurance costs and eventually lost their new ships and all their money.
Thats a terrible, frustrating and demotivating game design that has driven away an incredible amount of players.

Sale numbers from Janurary 2016 indicate that 1,4 million copies of the games were sold.
Where are these players?
Cmon, where are they?

There are ~19.000 (human) inhabited systems.
Even if 50% of the players would be dedicated explorers heading far out into the unexplored systems there would be an average of 37 human players per system. Ok, nobody is online all the time... there is work... there if family ... there are other games... etc.
But I can play for weeks... jumping from one inhabited system to another and not encounter another player.
The point is that 1.4mio people wanted to play this game.... the real number of people which still play is a joke compared to that and there are many reasons which explain it.

Huor said it.
The game has to be fun not frustrating.

like I said... information that players would require inside the game (before they decide to give up playing the game)

the game has fundamental problems in terms of information, UI, balance and long term motivation.
But at least we can buy bobbleheads and ship spoilers(aka ship kits).

I am 100% sure that 99.9% of the players are not even aware that this game even has a story(line).

There is? Hidden? Why having a story line if you dont know you are in one or there is one.
Probably thats what could motivate players (me) too.

Well as it was already pointed out: Its terrible if i have to switch from the game to a 3rd party side just to read some info that has to be in the game. Havent done this and i dont think that belongs to gaming.
Also some of the infos are "hidden" in to long fact or story sheets. I dont want to read books in a game. It should be short with all info that are necessary.

I also dont like to invest more money to get horizons or engineers just to find myself again in a game where npcs just rip me apart although i dont like fighting and with one of the previous update this got worst.
The game lacks intuitivism, which did bother me alot and is another reason why i stopped. What a bummer.