but we get the goverment we vote - or not vote 
We dont need to like them, they have to do their job^^
my political statement to the Ukrainian crisis
- denne
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There are 142 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by SWAT_OP-R8R.
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again an advice... dont try to twist my words to suit your argumenation
hey, a small joke from time to time is a must in this kind of discussion. don't take it seriouslyQuoteand btw. we never get the government we like... not even in our own countries
thats a fundamental fact
i agree
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finally we agree on something
thats a progress -
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there are deads on both sides
that happens when ppl are not willing to go for a diplomatic solutionthat people die in a civil war is not surprising
the only tragedy is that people were not willing to resolve the problems in a peaceful way before the situation escalated.to blame the west like its done in the comments is idiotic
but well... when people are angry they often switch their brain off -
Avoiding elections, occupy local authority buildings - all with weapon powers is also not the finest solution of the pro-russian groups. Why is just the US mentioned? I believe Ukraine government has more supporters than just the US - where is prove of that the US is involved into this?
What i find also a bit strange is that google finds no news about this. Shouldnt it be in the medias?
Mostly i agree with OP. It seems people first need to kill each other before they start to understand that solving an issue with weapons will solve nothing. Talking, finding compromises, making agreements - do. Creating rules for all and trying to enforce them without weapons (claiming your right on court).... This civil war will not end until the involved throw away their weapons and start meeting each other on tables and finding solutions. I hope they will find out sooner than later - i really hope they do.
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hmmm, not sure about that.
Anyway, this is not a big response to the 11 Ukrainian soldiers who got killed a couple of days ago by sheep manifestants... but sometimes getting the head/brain of those sheep is hard enough to need this, I think.Because afterall, if they sent troops in there, there'd be deaths on both sides, so this way there would be less deaths... just not sure about the civilians part though, hard to accept.
Edit:
Ok seems like again, that's just half the story.It wasn't just a strike from an ukrainian plane with US's support and the BS of the russian version of that news.
I'm not gonna say what's different though, as there are people on both sides here and I don't want to discuss about it.
Good luck seeing your own truth.
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Avoiding elections, occupy local authority buildings - all with weapon powers is also not the finest solution of the pro-russian groups.
i just want to remind u, that all this already happened on Maidan. no doubt there were lots of peaceful protesters (as among the anti-Kiev protesters too), which wanted a peaceful change away from corrupt politicians such as the former elected Janukowytsch to more and real democracy. but among these peaceful protesters were also armed men, shooting on policemen and even protesters. u can find dozens of videos about this in the internet.
on the other hand the last election in Ukraine was just a farce. several candidates opposing to the Kiev junta where threatened and beaten and gave up. so in the end there were only candidates left which were anti-Russian. and u know in eastern Ukraine live mostly Russians? so why to take part in an election where u can only loose? Timoshenko wants to nuke all Russians and kill Putin with machine gun. and the other candidating oligarchs were already known to work for their very own benefits. the Ukrainian election was even a betrayal to the peaceful Maidan activist. because the result was everything but more and real democracy.QuoteWhy is just the US mentioned? I believe Ukraine government has more supporters than just the US - where is prove of that the US is involved into this?
of course there are more involved than just the US. and it was even confirmed by our western media that at least 400 mercenaries of Acadami (former Blackwater known for their warcrimes in Iraq) is fighting in Ukraine. and since 400 are confirmed u can expect there are much more, maybe thousands.
here is another example of US-involvement: the son of us-vp Biden and Ukrainian gas .QuoteWhat i find also a bit strange is that google finds no news about this.
try thisQuoteShouldnt it be in the medias?
in fact i am very surprised about the confirmation about Acadami by our media. remember, they tried all to hide the massacre in Odessa and lied about it. the same about the use of white phosphorous bombs on eastern Ukrainian cities by the Ukrainian army.QuoteIt seems people first need to kill each other before they start to understand that solving an issue with weapons will solve nothing.
in my opinion this crisis is just another example what happened, when other nations try to interfere somewhere where they shouldn't. officially 5 billion dollars were spent by the US to create a regime change. the Ukrainian soldiers themselves mostly don't want to fight against their own people. so because of this lack of soldiers Kiev decided to integrate nazis into the national guard. then now foreign mercenaries in Ukraine as mentioned above. all these are facts, confirmed even by western media. -
The Maidan was not an election in the first place. This was a revolution against its the government and president Viktor Yanukovych. I agree that an involvement from foreign countries in this revolution shouldn't have taken place. That has been a mistake.
The revolution was against the constitution of the Ukraine but accepted from western nations - not from Russia. If it was against the constitution then western nations should not have accept it too. There are a humble of mistakes from both parties, western nations and Russia and other pro Russian fighters.What i wanted to say: If an election is going to take part then all the people should be free to choose what they want to choose. When election offices must close because the people working there are threatened with their lives then the people are not free to choose. And in that regard the referendum on Crimea was also not legit. In the same way as you try to justify that there were just western politicians to elect, on Crimea only pro Russian politicians were to elect
Honestly it doesn't matter if pro Russian or pro western. What counts is Ukraine and its people. Disturbing elections and hinder people to freely choose is not an option. I just get the feeling that the pro Russian fighters try to get the lead and oppress the people living there - to vote for pro Russia. And all who don't want and would vote for Ukraine or even pro west are doomed. Very single sided. Democratic elections are imho a good way to represent what the people living there wants to have - considered there are parties from all aspects and kind of people to elect. Fighting with weapons and killing innocent people is the wrong way.Dunno but Ukraine should close their borders and listen to their own people instead of a few advisor and consultants from outside of Ukraine - where most of them surely have other (economical) ideas in mind. The pro Russian areas should get their voice in parliament to represent the people living their - but only if the sovereignty of Ukraine is maintained and those areas do not belong to Russia. Ukraine has to stay Ukraine. And it will not belong to Europe and not to Russia - its kind of Border World (in regards of FL
Ukraine could benefit with trade agreements with both Europe and Russia where all could benefit - but right now the current situation will just bring more chaos. -
Put them all in a sack and flog it: you'll always hit the right one!
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Well Huor, you're obviously right that the current situation there is already "chaos".
And unlike the russian media bullshit (not that the western/US media has no bullshit, but at least there's european media to be in middle xD), people who live/lived in the countries near them, basically the ones once affected or partially/completely occupied bu Russia in the past, know what kind of bullshit can actually happen. And yeah, the media bs is not a big deal compared to the real deal...
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I do not have a complete idea of what is happening in Ukraine.
I came here to play Freelancer
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apparently we live in 2 different kinds of reality then
The blackboxes has been analyzed by multiple countries and it was clearly said that the results will be published as soon the investigation at the crash site is complete.
That btw. makes perfect sense because in a situation which easily could lead to an even larger war it is clearly the best to take a look at all evidences before making a final judgment.Why does it take so long?
Well, it took weeks before the investigations could start due to the obstruction of the separatists.
And investigating after several weeks (when so many evidences dont exist anymore) is certainly not an easy task.
Its hard to believe that during this long time all the ppl which where at the crash site didnt touch and change anything (on purpose or by accident).Warplanes or satellites right now are relative unimportant atm.
Thats the most neutral comment you can expect from me regarding this issue.The sanctions against russia are in my eyes absolutely justified. Russia is clearly delivering weapons and is practically nothing to find a diplomatic solution at all.
Your analysis of US economics is nice but totally wrong actually.
Many speculations and false facts.
Just alone looking at the military spending which were reduced by more than 14% in the USA but clearly increased in russia... well... that somehow does not fit to your version of all of this.
And these BRICS-countries have enough financial problems to solve by themselves.Well.... like i said....
many speculations without any real facts behind thembtw. european media is clearly not controlled by the government and clearly able to report freely the truth
russian media on the other side is owned by the state and you only get to hear what the state wants to be published -
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That btw. makes perfect sense because in a situation which easily could lead to an even larger war it is clearly the best to take a look at all evidences before making a final judgment.
the judgement was already made by our media and "politicians", just think about Germans "Bild" and its "Putins Opfer" and all the other stuff published directly after the "crash". everything what comes now, will be very silent, at least if they have to tell, that finally Ukrainian army is responsible for this terrible act. and btw. most circumstances indicate this.QuoteWell, it took weeks before the investigations could start due to the obstruction of the separatists.
this is what our media mostly tell us. but there are other voices: security through rebels guaranteed as far as possible. on the other hand it is concealed, that Ukrainian army kept shooting on this area. i also read about an OSCE-observer who confirmed, that the rebels made a good job to support the investigation.QuoteIts hard to believe that during this long time all the ppl which where at the crash site didnt touch and change anything (on purpose or by accident).
the typical excuse offered by our media. so there is no need anymore to investigate at all? the main evidences still are the black box, satellites images, radio traffic (not published by Ukrainian authorities and not planned to be published), radar recordings. so if there was a real wish to avoid a big war, there was already the opportunity long ago before the accusations were made by different Western "governments" and our media.QuoteWarplanes or satellites right now are relative unimportant atm.
no, they are the most important, imo.QuoteThe sanctions against russia are in my eyes absolutely justified. Russia is clearly delivering weapons and is practically nothing to find a diplomatic solution at all.
really? delivering weapons into critical areas justifies sanctions? OK! so where are sanctions against US, Germany and many other countries? but i really wonder, why the anti government forces in E. Ukraine have to deal with old crap weapons captured from Ukrainian army. as i said before, i wonder about the Russian patience. if i was on their place maybe i would support E. Ukraine with thousands of anti aircraft missiles. but no, still the warplanes are bombing Donetzk and other civil areas.QuoteYour analysis of US economics is nice but totally wrong actually.
it was shortened, yes, but is mainly correct.QuoteJust alone looking at the military spending which were reduced by more than 14% in the USA but clearly increased in russia... well... that somehow does not fit to your version of all of this.
still 640 bill $ (US) vs. 88 bill $ (RU). well ...Quotebtw. european media is clearly not controlled by the government and clearly able to report freely the truth
able, from the legal point of view, yes. reality is, that our media keep on warmongering by hiding facts and even lying. a very good side analyzing our media is this one , unfortunately only German. please take ur time to read a little bit there. a small excerpt from it:QuoteStellen wir diesen „Experten“ (aus der Reihe der Terrorexperten wie Rainald Becker oder Theveßen) mal Fachleute gegenüber. Zum Verbund der Themen Beweise, Flugzeugabschuss und Propaganda äußern sich Frauen und Männer die es wissen, hochrangige erfahrene Geheimdienstler der USA, nämlich die VIPS Steering Group mit William Binney, ehem. Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; Mitbegründer, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.); Larry Johnson, CIA & State Department (ret.); Edward Loomis, NSA, Cryptologic Computer Scientist (ret.); David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.); Ray McGovern, ehem. US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA Analyst (ret.); Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer für Nahost (ret.); Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.); Peter Van Buren, U.S. Department of State, Foreign Service Officer (ret.); Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned).
Ihr Memo für den Präsidenten der USA sagt u. a.Die Spannungen zwischen USA und Russland wegen der Ukraine sind prekär und wir sind weit davon entfernt, dass unsere Berater die ganze Tragweite der Eskalation verstehen. Die New York Times und andere Medien behandeln heikle umstrittene Informationen pauschal als Fakten und bekommen ihre Stichworte aus Regierungequellen der USA. Zwölf Tage nach dem Abschuß der MH17 hat unsere Regierung noch keine koordinierte geheimdienstliche Einschätzung herausgegeben, welche Beweise denn existieren, die die Verantwortung für den Abschuß feststellen - geschweige denn eine überzeugende Unterlegung der wiederholten Behauptungen, das Flugzeug wäre von einer von Russland gelieferten Rakete in den Händen der ukrainischen Separatisten abgeschossen worden...
Quoterussian media on the other side is owned by the state and you only get to hear what the state wants to be published
dunno, i don't live there. our media on the other hand are one-sided and corrupted by transatlantic interests. -
In order to attract more attention, they shot down the MH17... again another Malaysian airlines tragedy...
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the bild... really?
then it must be true
(you could also refer to the magazines with reports about ufo sighting over berlin)and while i doubt that germany or other eu countries deliver weapons into war regions i stick to my statements above
the sanctions are absolutely justified
the best decision in my eyes was to stop the delivery of weapon system to russia because i have the bad feeling that these weapon systems are used against my country somewhenyou clearly should be more careful what you read and which "blogs" you believe in
fact is the german media has been neutral so far with almost everything that happened regarding mh17 or the conflict in the ukraine -
Thought about the same - Bild
very trustworthy media... I have to admit that its really hard to believe what is published so far. Fact is someone has taken down MH17, it is very unbelievable to me that Ukraine itself shot it down. I believe that it was either the rebels or some of the Russian military. For me its hard to believe Ukraine has shot it down? Why? It never has shot down another jet before. Whereas in opposite the rebels have shoot down some Ukraine air vehicles.
I also would not believe what US media specialists are telling. The whole US government is not trustworthy in my eyes. They made false claims in the past, they dont care about international laws.
If you would ask me: I would completely withdraw all support and military from Ukraine that belongs to western nations. We let Russia invade Ukraine and then just can say, sorry words didnt help, weapons we wont bring in. How are we supposed to help if the opposing parties wont agree on anything.
Then i am just a bit disappointed about all the Ukraine people who are oppressed by the rebels or russian media, which cannot voice their mind freely. The best prove were the elections that were sabotaged by the rebels. If Russia would have an interest to stop the troubles in eastern Ukraine then it would have closed the borders itself. No further support could cross, further weapons were brought. Shall we all support that?
What is your suggestion Denne, how all this should end? Let the rebels take over control? Using self named leaders... for sure that the best democracy that can bring peace - what is with all the eastern ukraine that dont want to be owned by the rebels or their parties?
