CROSSFIRE 'n SWAT FUTURE an open letter

Quote from Gunny

Well I will offer my 1 euro worth of comments.

In Op's defense, I can easily say that the "assault" on me personally over the past 3 years by some was nothing compared to the attacks that Op has endured from countless people. Some were arguements that were legitimate, some were downright irresponsible, but none-the-less most insults were not called for. The constant attacks on the server itself, the constant cheating and the constant "entitlement" attitude that many players have. Even as a paying clan, you still don't have the right to do and say as you please, but you do absorb greater responsibility. I find it insulting when many of you think you can demand from someone or their work, which you do not own in any shape or form.

I have been here a very very long time. I have witnessed some inexcusable acts, ignorant decision making ( some of it my own) and gestures of malice towards CF, with some of it carried out, with the only intention of ruining this community. Sadly, most of us let it happen when we witnessed it and for those who stood up against it, were only driven off CF by the hatred shown by the players or under their own disgust.

Many here have incredible talent in coding, programming and modeling, but instead of actually stepping up to the plate and offering sound ideas, you only offer critism without a logical solution. This doesn't apply to all those who have made comments about the mod, but it sure applies to most.

The idea that we can demand anything here is absurd and certainly has never been the rule. Now has Op always accepted the offered help? No he hasn't. But it doesn't mean that we need to refuse to assist when the request is on the table.

Now my apologies for not being in-game as much as I should have, but I honestly needed to step away for a short period of time and come back with a fresh attitude for 1.81. However some of you simply cannot and will not make the effort to change your assinine, improper and childish behavior. Which tells me that you bring your realworld personality and problems to CF.....which simply, is wrong.

So when I see many of you begging for CF not to close, I can only say, that of all the trash I witnessed over the past 7 years of my time here, I can't blame Op for his possible decision. Do I want it to close? No I don't.

best regards

Gunny CIC CFPD

Founder, Sirius Bucks Coffee, ( where addiction is gauranteed)

*********************************************************************************

I like Gunny's post above and would give him a +1 respect thingy - but don't know how to do that.

Az

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Come on, OP... your response is just plain oppositional. You know the answers, you know that my examples are good, and you know that there are many more examples.

The point is that people want to help you. You do everything in your power (as in your responses to me, above) to discourage them and to make working with you unpleasant.

But it is your project and you can do whatever you want with it. If you are getting your intended results, then, by all means, continue.

no my response is the truth...
for ages i am begging for help and nothing happens and NEVER i have rejected help when it was offered (if that help actually would have been able to introduce positive changes)

if you think different then show me where I have done that

Quote from SWAT_OP-R8R

no my response is the truth...

Sure, OP.

> for ages i am begging for help

Where? In the Crossfire Mod Forum? Or someplace else where people who follow Crossfire may not see it?

> nothing happens

Why not?

(Hint: It is not for lack of interest, enthusiasm, or talent in the Crossfire community.)

> NEVER i have rejected help when it was offered (if that help actually would have been able to introduce positive changes)

If you think that fixing your installer, common crashes, and user frustration would not produce positive changes, then I don't know what to say, OP.

I have given you several clear examples of where you have rejected valuable offers for help. This thread is a further example.

More frequently you discourage help by arguing pointlessly with people who are trying to help you. Also by keeping the things that really need to be fixed secret, private, or blocked.

An example of discouraging help is that I did not even bother to volunteer to write an article for Crossfire after you rejected my help on fixing major bugs. What would the article say? That Crossfire is brilliant, astonishing, and wonderful... but the author prefers that users endure frequent crashing rather than allow an expert software engineer help him make the mod more stable?

If you are getting the results that you want, then continue. If you want different results, then consider changing your behavior.

YOU are the common denominator, OP.

slowly i getting a bit angry at that shit that you state

MY INSTALLER IS BUGGED?
what a bullshit
MY INSTALLER IS WORKING PERFECT... it never failed expect when ppl got corrupted downloads due to their i-net (which is definitly not my responsibility)

Not a single time I got a PM from you about fixing any bugs... not any offer or suggestion how to fix something.... nothing via pm.. nothing via mail ...nothing on this forum

IF you are that clever to fix what i am not able to fix (i wonder what that might be) then DO IT

oh and and your claims about not existing help requests .... that is also pure bullshit
either you are totally blind or you dont want to see them
let me just post the latest requests that were posted by me on THIS forum board
SWAT FAQ request
SWAT Sci Fi games
SWAT Portal Updates in 2010
SWAT mod database/mod spotlight
News Script
News Posting / News Submission
SWAT Toolbar
SWAT Wallpapers
In need of a php coder
Moderation signup
September/October updates
it took me just 1 minute to find them as they are on the very first page of this board

There are of course more of them.... many more and it would only take 5 mins to search them and even more requests were done at community meetings.

So dont tell me such a shit... the facts speak a different language. I know what i have done and what I have not done, i have a very good memory.

ouch thats becoming a little harsh here boys, calm down a bit. You guys may have to talk by PM a bit to settel this in private ... Obviously there is a misunderstanding between you two cause you're both saying the opposite of the other....

And sorry for you bullwinkle but OP is right about the multiple help requests... Not a day passes without OP asking for help from the community. Althoug OP, when you say "IF you are that clever to fix what i am not able to fix (i wonder what that might be) then DO IT", its your job to point helpers the way to start from. You are the admin, you need to guide those who want to help you they cannot just start from nothing.

Really guys, calm a bit and talk in pm. Possibly Bullwinkle will help you for some stuff, OP. Just work together gentlemen, we don't need two personnalities fighting, we need to competent guys working along each other !

EDIT : You got a PM OP

no its not my job to take everybody at the end to show them how everything does work
if i would have to show somebody how to mod.... and here i mean how to use more than just a few tools (coz CF is fairly more complicated than any other mod) I would spend much more time teaching than doing that work on my own
help where the instructions take longer than the work itself is definitly not wanted

I didn't meant to take them every step of the way, dear OP, just to start them off. Once that is done we can hope that they are intelligent enough and will continue by themselves... Its the way education/job works : you got someone who teach you the basics and once its done you get yourself in the world and continue lerning everyday until you retire. Its sad but playing the teacher for a while might ease to get the help you want...

I understand you couldn't hope to teach someone everything you know, cause you must have modded for more than a decade now !

even a modder with good modding knowledge, e.g. Blaster or one of the other modders at TSP wouldnt be able to work on CF
the basics wont help... and learning the neccessary stuff can take months, maybe years (even if i teach somebody)

Quote from SA_ARROW

ouch thats becoming a little harsh here boys, calm down a bit. You guys may have to talk by PM a bit to settel this in private ... Obviously there is a misunderstanding between you two cause you're both saying the opposite of the other....

And sorry for you bullwinkle but OP is right about the multiple help requests... Not a day passes without OP asking for help from the community. Althoug OP, when you say "IF you are that clever to fix what i am not able to fix (i wonder what that might be) then DO IT", its your job to point helpers the way to start from. You are the admin, you need to guide those who want to help you they cannot just start from nothing.

Really guys, calm a bit and talk in pm. Possibly Bullwinkle will help you for some stuff, OP. Just work together gentlemen, we don't need two personnalities fighting, we need to competent guys working along each other !

EDIT : You got a PM OP

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It is not a clash of personalities, Sam. It is one strong personality clashing with a lot of people who try to help the guy. Many others have said similar things... I was hoping that, perhaps, I could say it in a way that could reach OP's considerable rational side. Not today, apparently.

I have no emotional connection to the matter at all... I am a mostly-disinterested third party with just enough interest in Freelancer to offer to contribute to a good project -- but only if my help is wanted.

And, yes... my withdrawal is not permanent. But I am not going to argue without purpose, and my main point is that I would help OP if he would make it easy for people to help him. I believe that others would, as well.

If not, then that's OK, too. I can just as easily do something else.

PS: I am not asking for OP to teach me anything... not now, anyway. My offers, so far, have been in my areas of expertise -- software engineering and English language. I would be teaching him, rather than the other way around.

But I cannot fix what is not open or available to fix. Does that make sense?

EDIT: It appears that my previous message somehow vanished off the board. For the benefit of other readers, I withdrew my offers to help because OP escalated his pointless arguments to outright mis-representations of fact. I am happy to help someone who wants it, but I have no interest in arguing with the guy who claims to want help. If the development forums, wiki, and source open up someday, then I could be encouraged to offer my services again.

In the meantime, asking people to help on a closed project is like asking people to go and paint his house for free... and then having him taunt and mistreat the volunteers while they work. I do help clean up the public park, but that is something that benefits everyone in the community.

fine... since you can do and know everything better you can do
you appear to be an expert in .... whatever ... so far ive not seen anything... except big words

my rational site is telling me that you are wrong with everything you have said in the same why your claim about the "not existing" help requests turned out to be wrong

anyway i cant make it more easy for ppl to help... i requested help... not complicated stuff... and that stuff has to get done
how much easier should i make it? teach how to use google or how to write a word?

your entire argumentation bullwinkle is ridiculous, you have no idea what you are talking about, you made claims i meanwhile proved wrong and you blame me for stuff ive not even done
all that without proving your words, your skills, your intentions
in my eyes you dont even know whats going on and how anything is getting done here but since you are so smart you can do what you claim right away

go and create a new FLMM
go and fix the mod
go and do all the other work

I wont hold you back.

:)Hi
I'm quiet new here and only really started playing CF1.8 (I had a quick go at 1.7 a few years back) which I think is the best Fl mod I've seen without doubt.
I came across it while voting at the Mod of the year site for Disco which I'd played for years. Not been back there since I started playing CF1.8.
A couple of hours after playing CF1.8 and went back and voted for CF1.8
I have spent a lot of hours reading the forums and most of the recent posts. I can see both sides of the argument but that's what it is an argument at the moment.

This needs to stop ! IMHO There's no point standing around a broken window pointing fingers at each other over who broke the glass. What's needed is somebody to replace the glass.

Everybody needs to take a step back and think what most of us want is for SWAT and CF to continue, and be built up again to what it once was.
Just look at the amount of Read's this thread has had ?

OP has asked for help as we can all see from the above post, no point deigning it, it's there for all to see. IMHO

So we need to draw a line under all this and look for away to move forward and not back.

I suggest if OP wants to that is ? OP makes a current list of all the jobs and help that's needed all in one post so it's easy to find, and then see what the community can do ?
I would hate to see this community die. I have made a few good friends in the short time I've been here.
Thanks
See you all ingame

Like always, the truth is somewhere in the middle, no matter we want to be in right every time so badly.

Problem here is an attitude.Changing the way of requesting and on the other hand the way of acting, may result in significant number of positive changes.
More friendly and "we are equal" atmosphere will do.

Like always i am not afraid to gave an example from my RL, i hope for good.

I was owner and director of small enterprise (20 employers).Every time when i try to be at the top of the hill (no matter no one couldn't compare with me in knowledge and stamina when it comes about work in office as well as in the field) and request some things to be done(for money of course^^)the job was done but mostly just done to be done.Then i start to think how to rise productivity and to achieve better working atmosphere.
Because i am very familiar in some things which are in direct link with human nature and personality, i seek for answer in books as well as in conversation with few friends and ex colleague from high school of psychology.
I've changed my attitude and ppl start to stay at work even during Sunday.They start to act with common sense and positive results was there.Moreover they do few things for free in order to improve their working surrounding.

However i do not want to preach or to gave advices like: "how to change ur life in a few steps"(because this sucks and it's not possible)But one thing is so sure:when something goes wrong and bad, and when you are down and out, and u ask ur slf "OMG why this happen to me again?", take a deep breath and think about for few days.

Usually we will find the answer, and Reason for problem as well as part of solution for the same problem, always lay in us.

sincere

Mellon

ps
OP take things in ur hands again.You are director here.And pls remember, like always minority will do the job for majority.

L

.

an expert for what?
modding ? -> then i would know it
for CF? -> then i would know that for sure
for the CF server? -> see the 2 statements above
for my tools and scripts needed to keep CF running? -> experts dont exist out there

fact is that I know best about what is possible and what is not possible... if somebody has a suggestion then i will listen... if i decide that this suggestion is not possible or does not fit into the concept then this "no" is final
and nobody is an expert if he/she is not able or willing to do the minor work first

Bond
"we are equal"
if we would be then I wouldnt have a 18h workday
I have no problem with equality... but only if it does not only includes the rights but also the duties and workloads
actually this equality is what ive been aiming at all the time

What is neccessary to run this community?
Probably too much to create a complete list. But a few examples of how everything does work will give an idea which influences a community has.

The server:
Players always prefere to join servers with many players online. The idea behind that is that if many players are online the server/mod must be good. Thats why many good mods that are new dont even have a chance to get successful.
Conclusion -> the more players are online the more the server is attractive to new players. Result -> growth of the server
On CF this is simply not the case since primarily the clans are not doing their jobs to keep their members active. -> no roleplay, no conflicts, no duty to help the clan in times of need
Freelancers often do what clans do.
Current situation: boredom, clan members dont feel the need to do something for the clan, -> lack of players online -> lack of new players since the server is not full.
No matter how good and bugfree the mod is or will get the above described situation can not change since the players do not change their behaviour.
Factors such as ads play an additional role in this messery -> since we dont do any eventhough it was requested by me.
Final conclusion: Players leave the server because there is no action going on which is result of their own inactivity.

The Portal:
The above described situation applies in almost the same way to the portal and the forum. No matter how good i make the site, the forum and everything nobody will use it if there is no activity and that does lead to even more inactivity.
If there are interesting discussions about games or other interesting topics then more ppl will attend these discussions and the activity will raise progressivly. Thats simply a law of social behaviour.
Btw. when have you guys stopped to discuss about Freelancer (the game you play) or other games that you play?
Activity leads to more members, more members lead to more activity.
Just like on the server it only depends on the members/players... its just a matter of what they want. If they dont want to help then they dont need to wonder why everything is going down the drain.
Bond wrote that ppl are here for the fun... thats ok... but these ppl should finally realize that the fun they have is based on work that other ppl did and that this fun wont last forever if the members of this community dont do something for it.

The Portal (again):
Freelancer is an old game with a decreasing number of players (thats a fact). The fun you have wont last forever just because of that fact.
It requires work to be done to keep everything running.
There are a few hundred active CF players (actually there should be that many based on the clan roosters and logins since january 2010).
There are a few thousand FL online players (most not playing CF)... most of them dont even know CF. -> potential members
There are maybe 10.000 FL players overall -> MP + SP.... most of them dont even know CF.-> potential members
There are hundredthousands of Scifi game players all over the globe -> potential members (and maybe some of them start playing FL and CF)
Main question is "how to convince them to join SWAT?"
1. active members on the server
2. active members on the portal
3. quality content on the portal
4. members which help to create this quality content
5. members which keep everything running
6. ads
7. ....
8. ....
9. ....

Ppl might want to blame me for everything that happens but in the end the members are the ones responsible of their own "fun".
"What they do" or "what they dont do" is the different between success and failure.

So if I take your words correctly :

OP don't want help for the Mod itself right now but mostly for side stuff (news, events, portal, forum, moddb, wiki, etc....) If ppl are good at doing the small stuff in the eyes of the Admin, they might hope for a little task or two in the big CF mod.

Is that it OP ?

Btw, i've taken responsability to moderate CF's ModDB page. Any one else willing to do a little something for the other projects ????

If ppl would do the small/easy jobs... then I at least would have time again to do the complicated stuff.

EDIT: check my previous (updated) post if you want to know the difference between failure and success

Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

So why keep this discussion going when the links have been provided for people to view and what needs to be done. Now once again, let's see who jumps in with both feet to make things happen here, instead of talking about what they can do.

OK it sounds like the 1st thing we need is more players on the portal and online.

To do this we need to advertise (as OP said) the mod.

How about one of the event organizers arranges a big event and we all (where possible) try and support the event, and get as many players on line as possible. (should be a laugh as well)

Have a big free for all and have as many different ships there as we can. (I have 5 ships and I'm willing to move them all to any system required (Arena ?) for the event)

This MOD has by far the BEST FL fighter ships, weapons and missiles of any FL mod out there I've played.

We can also do lots of flybys past the most impressive stations and system backgrounds.

Then get somebody to film it. We can then post it online in as many places as possible ?

I'm sure somebody here in this community has the right editing s/w and the skills, we could make a really good video and some screen shots that should draw in more players ?

Thanks

.