Server situation

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Originally posted by RogueJet
All the rules are fine, as they are, and people agreed on them when this place came alive. All RP rules were discussed by the community for a month & then accepted with OP`s approval. It`s the people who don`t understand or simply don`t want to understand them, that are wrecking this place. Let`s face it: OP gave this community more that their deserved chances to set things right & ppl have failed every time. He has made up his mind & the ppl of the comunity have to face the punishment, coz noone is without guilt by now. Yes, we can do better, but don`t you think it`s a bit too late for that? It`s always the same: OP get`s pissed/disappointed, we get shaken up/scared, try to fix our mistakes in too great haste & when OP`s calmed down a bit, we`re back to the old shit again. It`s been going like this for the last 2 years, as far as i remember.

OP has created this place for us, to do the one thing we all have in common - Play the game. If we mess it up constantly, then i`m asking myself whether we need and/or deserve it or not?

Mate, no offense but the current rules are no rules...they seem more like a story like "Hansel and Gretel" than an actual set of rules...I have some experience in working with rules and believe me...those aren't good rules...let me point out only one crucial mistake: there are alot of "do not"s but what happens if I break them? There are no punishments for the interdictions...so then people do not know what to expect, because it is all left at the discretion of the SP...the SP should only be the one who enforces the rules not interpret them (and here it's 99% interpretation and 1% actual rules).
The rules I have prepared contain at least 5 pages (with characters of 12, Time New roman) of General RP...that's the basics and most general rules...there would be 6 more Server, Clan and RP (1, 2 pages each)- Police, Smuggler, Pirate, Merc.

This way everybody will know what to expect if they break a rule and SPs will only have to apply the punishments set by the rules and not decide themselves which punishment to enforce. This way it will be way easier...I don't see this happening with the current set of rules...all I see is alot of people arguing about alot of things...

But if exceptions of situations aren't included in those pages,sometimes they would look unfair, cus there nearly always are exceptions that of some rules, that doesn't deserve those.

Anyway I hope most of the punishments are based on fines, and very short bans heh, except the very heavy ones, sure.

I see many here questioning the rules that are already set in place ... and i ask myself why? the rules were good and were followed for many years and people had fun and RP was well played, the whole server was a fun enjoyable place to come on a daily basis, its only the last year or 2 where things started to go wrong, this has nothing to do with the rules and more to do with the people playing, so please no more talk about how the rules read as a story or how they are insufficient.

For new players, the normal ruls are great.... just useing human's mind you know what it's nice to do, or not nice lol
They are clear, DO Not do x. It's understandable that there are punishments for breaking them, even if they see there are no punishments made... they stat to get free, and also some players... that start thinking or doin something wrong, for different reasons, problems or bored or enemyes, looseing PvPs or fun(and haveing to much ego), etc.

I have to agree with Slayer Lucy and Michael. The rules that are in place have been around for several years, since the beginning of CF, and we never had any problems like this until recently. The rules are, imo, good. As its the SP that are the rule enforcers it should be up to them to decide weather someone is breaking a rule, and how to punish them based on the rule broken, and how it was broken. (For example, the no suicide rule. If someone suicides during PVP, then a SP can for example ban them for a day. But if someone accidentally suicides because of, say, lag and didnt see the planet till it was too late, then there shouldnt be any punishments because it was an accident.)

And as lucy said, I dont want to have to read 19 pages of rules before being able to have fun. As long as I know what I can and cant do, thats fine, I wont do what I cant do because its against the rules, and I know there will be punishments, and thats all that matters.

@ Daywalker:

A Community (Players) need to earn a place to be. We might have chosen to play CF when it was all good. OP did work on CF, spent countless hours, so that WE can have fun. But, the moment we start making sh*tstorms around here, all that work is/was as waste of time & we don`t deserve anything. If i was in OP`s place, i`d have shut this place down a long time ago, coz for sure i wouldn`t have had the patience to listen to the same sh*t over & over & over again for 2-3 years straight.

Quote

Originally posted by SWAT_OP-R8R
You act like kids, so you get treated like kids.

Baseline - We do things as we`re supposed to do them, and we might await the release of a new mod version that`s created FOR US, or we keep up like this, and OP, CA & the rest of the SWAT Modding team use their time for more productive things, than working for ppl that only keep bickering around.

Post Scriptum:

If you`ve got anything else to tell me - use PM.

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Originally posted by BG_Slayer
I see many here questioning the rules that are already set in place ... and i ask myself why? the rules were good and were followed for many years and people had fun and RP was well played, the whole server was a fun enjoyable place to come on a daily basis, its only the last year or 2 where things started to go wrong, this has nothing to do with the rules and more to do with the people playing, so please no more talk about how the rules read as a story or how they are insufficient.

Answer is, because people think they have rights here, they think they are entitled to be here and they think more rules will change gameplay for the better.

Now we are populated with self-righteous Space Lawyers who want to make agreements to the agreements to the agreements on how to use the toilet properly.

@ Michael

Of course that with every rule there comes at least a notable exception. This document is meant to foresee a large number of situations.

@ Lucy -
If you want to play as a freelancer it's best to read only Server, general and RP faciton one. approx. 7-8 pages written in 12 TNR. The server rules will be the shortest I think, approx. 1 page or so.

If you want to play as a clan you would need to further read the clan rules and the individual RP faction. That would mean max. 10 pages alltogether (Server, General, Clan, Faction RP -your faction RP-). It is not even mandatory you read those...you could only read your RP faction rules (ie pirate) and the general ones and be briefed by your clan on the clan RP rules.

If reading 10 pages (as a clan leader or member of its Council) is too much (not necessarily all at once because when you face an in-game situation you could go directly to the rules afterward in order to clear things up) and sacrificing about maximum 10-15 minutes from your free time (even 19 pages is not a book and I hope I will be able to keep it under 19, plus you don't need to read the other RP faction Rules), only once, in order to achieve a clean server in which RP happens without people interfering and everybody is bound to the rules, with no exceptions and enforcing those rules will mean only applying the punishment and not making judgements (the SPs I mean), then I wish you good luck in finding a better alternative that does not rely on so many "subjective" points of view.

Kalisie

SPs are currently like judges. The rules leave 99% to subjective interpretation (ie No suiciding.-> What is suiciding?Is self-killing suiciding?Is suiciding not allowed when 2 persons agree to do it?How do you determine if somebody intentionally let himself be killed by NPCs? (maybe I'm sitting near Earth and a DK shows up and shoots me, is it my fault now?. What is "driving people off the server"? What is a KoS? Is a KoS when I decide to kill a person only a number of times per day and then move on but do it every day? How many times do I have to kill a person in order for it to be considered as a KoS? ETC. I could fill 100 pages with this stuff...because those are not rules, those are an interesting little story on how things happen on this server from the general point of view.

I think that what matters most is that you know how it is punished so you know what to expect. Banning people all over would make them go away pretty fast...The set of rules I have in mind would discourage people of breaking them but keeping them on the server because there would be a "buffer" zone...as punishments would first be RP related and only when the offender would prove that he is persistent in breaking the rules (for a number of times) then the real life punishment would be applied.

@ everybody

These rules have been in place for years and years. How was the situation in the last 4 years? Have things went smooth? Of course that those rules were ok in the beginning because the community was smaller at first and more enthusiast. What will you do when the 1.8 gets released and alot of people will come. Won't it be too late then, to change the rules...? Why do you think that, for instance, Eve Online has/had like...20 pages of rules? How many people do you figure would be playing CF now if it weren't for those incidents in the past, present and let's hope that not in the future?

I would like to ask you to not comment on the nature of these rules and not ask me particular things as it is a waste of time.

BOTTOM LINE: Does the CF Community want a new and improved set of rules? I am asking everybody, including OP.

I am not much better than any professional in my line of work but I am a Bachelor of Laws, I am working with an attorney for almost 2 years now and have both seen my share of rules and interpreted them and I'm reasonably proficient in the English language. These are not exceptional qualities, though I think they would recommend me for this kind of job but that is not important, your opinion is. I am offering to do this in my free time, of course and getting you all to agree on stuff will not be easy at all. This process may turn out to be useless anyhow if people will not agree on the entire set of rules and a considerable amount of work may go down the drain...

With this in mind, please note that I will not answer any questions related on how the future laws will be or give any hints on why this new set would be better than the current one. I will however expect your decision. I will be awaiting your PMs (seems the best way to know without hijacking this thread and stuff). However it would be, OPs word will carry the most weight.

Thank you for your attention.

P.S Gunny, don't bring your personal issues wherever you walk, like a little black cloud hovering above you and raining s@#t.

That being said I will end my contribution to this thread.

StephanoV

I don't see any personal issue in my comment, what I said is an absolute fact. I've been here long enough, right along with Slayer and a dozen others who will agree.

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"These rules have been in place for years and years. How was the situation in the last 4 years? Have things went smooth? Of course that those rules were ok in the beginning because the community was smaller at first and more enthusiast."
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Prior to about 2 years ago, these problems we experience today were fairly new or non-existant. And the community 4 years ago was not smaller than it is today. 40+ players was the norm with variances in either direction.

And take my advice, no more personal insults to me.

I'd like to see the draft of the new set of rules you made could you please forward these to me via PM?

in my honest opinion the current rules are simple and can't be easier to understand. they scroll through NY all day and can't be missed. no book to read no checking that you understand them. no way to interprete them but as they are. follow those rules and you can't go far wrong. rules don't need changing, peoples attitude does. "MINE INCLUDED!!!"

I have been on the server now for 2 years and 7 months. Clan problems do arise from time to time, some more serious than others. However, I think that things started to get worse after the no suicide, no npc kills and no trading in New York rules were introduced.

Players resent other players who try to get around these rules. They get to the heart of pvp and disadvantage players who observe them. This I feel is an example which support those who consider simple rules are the best and introducing more complicated rules only makes matters worse.

These latest rules can also be very hard to enforce fairly. Did a player accidentally suicide? It does happen. Did the player genuinely get kill by an npc? Did the player press F1 in combat or just after to stop getting killed by an npc? Was that a genuine pvp? These are just a few examples of the dilemmas facing the SPs.

Whether you agree with the rules or not, they have introduced areas of conflict which were not there before. Whenever there is an area of doubt, it is going to leave someone feeling unfairly treated, which then leads to arguments between factions, players and SPs. These rules were introduced with very good intentions and I am not advocating, removal of these rules. I am using this to perhaps shed some light on the problems and also to act as words of caution against making things more complicated.

One final point, we have to accept, as in most sports, the referees decision is final; take it on the chin and get on with the game.

@OP
You (deliberately ) don´t get the point.

If you want to punish me or anyone else at the server who did faults, go ahead i have no problem with it, cause i know my parts and would accept any punishment layed on me.

What i try to say all day long is that punishments have to be done when inacceptable issues are upcoming. People have to know what they will have to expect when going into this. Thats a cover for the majority who likes to play the Game instead of controling the ppl. and/or the enviroment.

I for myself would accept anything which would restore a Serversituation we had at the beginning of this year, ppl came in was guided, got explanations and so on. If i would know that a new set of rules would make the Situation better for all i would gladly accept them. I could write more IFs but the current problem is from my point of view that we have a roleback to old attitudes frequently - because of reasons posted here or in other threads within the last days, i must not repeat them.

I personaly like solutions instead of figuring out every single issue which could come. Having such things frequently is harming all, taking action will avoid the next situation, a harsh way to reach it will help, not destroy.

I also like your five additions and the reworked Rule Set. But tbH Huor is correct, the Rules which are in place are Rules not covering the Situation we have and i would like to add that these Rules was made for ppl not knowing the Enviroment where we are at another point yet because ppl entering CF did play it before or coming from other Servers to have a look.

Changing the way to play the Mod making it harder to gain advantages in having to interact with other Parties would help, also having a steam valve with ASF/CSF where fightings are inevitable would help. There was also the idea to roll the Clans through the factions, which is imO pretty well.

@ Michael

No, i disagree, ppl. wouldn´t leave when consequences would take place cause the majority do not have any problems with each other, do not make trouble and do not act against the rules - even when fighting each other, these ppl are the ones leaving because of the problems made by others. It´s just a few who are making the Gameservers life realy hostile between the parties - when doing exactly what they are not allowed to do. And those have to suffer the consequences instead in the future not for example Lucy, Az or Straw who have different but fresh ideas they are mostly hitting the nails on the head and try to help, using them or hearing their arguements would be helpfull.

Punishments: if you compare your actions with most of the others you will find out, that most ppl would never have to suffer any punishments.

Problem -> Action -> Reaction -> Consquences -> Problem away.

Rogue
i accept your point of view but i must not share it

a new set would actually make things more simple because people would not have to think about how to react in one given situation...because it will all be written down...

And even if the rules would consist of 19 pages there could be a summary that would look like your current set of rules (and everybody could know what not to do)...only that it would be a summary of the ruleset and people would be able to look up the article or section that describes a situation that they are in so that they could see what will happen and what certain things mean in order to get a clearer picture so that there will be less stuff left for subjective interpretation. SPs can do the same.

Things would be complicated until the rules would be finished and adopted. From then on, things would get ALOT more simple.

@Titus-Bode

Referees act on a strict set of rules...I doubt that a referee does not know the rules perfectly...so the situation is not the same here...all SP decisions are from the start subjective. they are the result of personal interpretation of the rules which can be collective but not all the people are agreeing on stuff so if it's not written down...well, you know the latin proverb "verba volant, scripta manent". (words fly away if not written down)

@ gunny
I was not insulting you I was merely describing a real life fact. The metaphor builds a visual image that closely resembles your current attitude towards me (and PX for that matter). If in the future you do not want to see such descriptions I would suggest you refrain from unapropriate comments and what would seem to be failed attempts at subtle insult.

@ StephanoV get of your high horse, i don't see anywhere in Gunny's post where he single you out or PX, normally people that jump to assumption like that and go all defensive usually have something to hide, do you?

The comment about CF community being smaller prior to 2 years ago had me rolling about with laughter, like Gunny said 40+ players active on CF a daily basis, i remember BG had so many active members on, that we had to split into 2 groups for group chat because we exceeded the amount allowed in one chat group, "FUN" RP was played everyday, police fighting and upholding the law against pirates and pirates well being pirates and there was mercs for hire, my point is we all stuck by the rules we all had a good laugh and all were good friends,don't get me wrong we all had our moments of madness and they were dealt with the correct way and nothing more was said, no witch hunting, no insults, but somehow in the last 2 years the rule book was thrown out by players and still i don't understand why and how the community is in this situation now.

I will hold my hands up and admit i did some pretty stupid things by loosing my cool and getting wrapped up in whats become a Political CrossFire server, 2 years ago OP said to me that i was the cause of the situation back then, so i went away after our conversation and thought about what he had said and decided well if i was that cause i would step away, have some RL relaxation and return when i felt rdy but still today the same shit is going on which leads me to believe i wasn't the cause of the problem, i may not have helped but the problem did and does run much deeper than my actions, basically all this finger pointing and putting the blame on one single person is pathetic, this is not the problem of one single man or how the Rules are set out this is the problem of all of you, drop the macho image and stop look and listen before you speak.