EU's attack on technology

There are 32 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by Michael.

  • Just wrong. You believe you're right - but there are laws that decide about right and wrong. What supreme court do you mean - the Spain one or the German one? As far as I know this case wasn't yet in the EU court. Take it to the EU court - let they decide. Until the case isn't there, he is in the charge of our courts and protected by our laws. I means thats the principal of being in one community - called EU. Otherwise someone could be hunter over different nations just because someone (Spain) feels the person it is looking for doesn't get the penalisation it deservers. That would be stupid.


    What we have to win? Well there are human rights and national laws - every human being is actually protected by these laws. I think its better to obey laws instead to ignore them. There is more to loose if we didnt follow these rules.


    Again, its not your interest and not your decision - also it actually doesn't matter what the majority thinks its right. Being right or not is the hands of the courts. Your example with the terrorists just lacks rationality. And I am pretty sure we Germans would be fine if you deal with him, because majority trusts in the courts decision (imho).


    If you feel there is so much wrong feel free to move to another community and be more happy there. I am happy to live in the EU. There are many difficulties every nation has to work on - and the community has to work on.

  • Community has to work on, ye, like certain countries that should try not being bossy out of turn like in every era before.


    My terrorist example does lack rationality, its the exact copy of your rationality where the terrorist is also a human protected by national laws of a foreign country, right? I invented that example so you see it from a different point of view than the selfrighteous one your country is feeding you(I suppose). It IS what germany is doing, and it lacks rationality, it breaks international accords instead of following them. Puig'demon is a terrorist, he caused chaos, extorted thousands of companies to raise his movement money once he stopped getting it from gov, caused many millions in loss, and you defend him against the justice of HIS country, not another "random country" that hunts somebody over countries, since he is not a german citizen and has no german papers of any kind like citizenship or residence, he is fleeing justice and you are obstructing it, that IS the end of this. Have fun thinking you are right and that germany laws are above other country's laws. Spain believed in Germany's stability and righteousness, same as spain was reliable in not selfjudging "humans" that already been judged by germany, locally, not through EU Court. But lawyers are just humans and they can be bought as proven with an obviously biased justice.


    I know you would agree if Germany had to go to EU Court to get each and all those hundreds of "humans protected by spain's national laws n all" that were handed out without interference caused by Spain (which is from national news). EU Court would love it, and the extra thousands of cases if every country disputed the others in EU for every single prisoner to get them to justice. So rational, right? So cooperative, and a nice ambient! I wish both your opinions were only because of patriotism, I'm not sure, but well... good that the same thinking was actually never used in CF, and thats why its great, and loved, and respected. No matter opinions, everyone is free to have their own, I will respect them, and the great people behind them :) Which is why I regretted commenting politics here, I was trying to limit it to tech news, not politics.

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    Edited 6 times, last by Michael: Last paragraph added ().

  • I am not defending my country. I am just stating the facts.

    Im not sure in which world you are living but certainly it is not the real one.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
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  • I guess you are in denial of any info I gave, and would give, that is also facts, but is against your views, even Merkel (who is not really one doing the big decisions anymore which helps with EU becoming less crumbly) had to do an illegal move to mute reports of stuff that she doesnt like to hear, about the world that others live in. Along with Theresa May, article 13, fake international news on the horrible abuse of tearing a burka of a woman, or rescue of a kid that was already held by the hand, while hiding other things like the demos in UK right now or in romania, or people like this somali, not getting deported even after being found guilty in a court of commiting rape of a 13yo, grand theft auto, death threatening and 20k euros robbery, just given 150 hours of cleaning a garden aka community service, and a fine, because his name was muhammad, what else ?



    Even considering that everything is actually fine, and you are right, despite EU being more divided and confronted than last time you said it was fine... dont you consider a problem that this is what is being shown to other countries ? If countries are actually being deceived, why is that ? And no, its not just Soros who is pushing for laws that dont even exist in his own country, Israel. He is part of the reasons of this confrontation, you should see how many people he paid to do demos in RO right now on streets xD Probably not a fact either, despite it being filmed on TV and shown how they are openly saying about payments, but a big deceiving, ok, but by who ?


    PS: If it doesnt interest you why people elsewhere are seeing, or being shown, different things (whether on tv, streets, or friends), whether its deceiving stuff or not, then its ok, Ill just avoid mentioning more, and the exchange of opinions was already more informative for me than you think :D

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    Edited once, last by Michael ().

  • If Germany is doing wrong and not obeying rules feel free to go to EU court (Spain) and seek for justice. Spain would have the same right to do with every prisioner as far as the law and regulations allow it. Make use of it, but dont blame us if your country does not use what they can use.


    Our law btw does not distinguish about being German or of any other nation, people are equal when they are at court. And i dont think its different in Spain. And if then i really would be worried about your justice system. Our laws are not above any other. The justice is just fair and without emotion. Your statements are full of emotions which have nothing to do with rationallity. Justice is based on facts. I would leave the judgement over Puidgemont to the professionals and not your or our personal feeling about it.


    Often it helps to switch roles to see also the other perspective. As much as I can understand that a lot of people want to see him punished, the decisions whether he can be punished or not are matter of facts and if all that is brought up is in his guilty. And if not then he cannot be punished for something he is not guilty for - and that btw is part of our national law. That is why we cant extradite people to countries where they are killed by their national law, that would make our lawyers guilty.

  • If justice was fair and without emotion, both countries would've had same result in the judging (and there wouldn't be a need to judge in different countries). The comparation of a demo against a building with what he did is out of this world, but ok, because that judge of that town knows what happened in another country better than those who live there, that is very rational, right ? Communication is always complete, truthful and fair, above first level experiences, also rational. Interesting to see how many views people can have of the same world.

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  • I am not in a state of denial... I am in state where understand the facts. A good amount of the stuff you said is absolutely not true and the rest are just opinions based on wrong conclusions.


    I dont really want to comment on anything you wrote in the past posts... like I said, its pointless.

    But I will pick a clear example where your simple opinions on the matter are utter bullshit.


    Quote


    Android isnt FORCED on phone manufacturers, they ASK to make deals to have the best system in their current opinion on their devices, there's no way google can force samsung to install android over... uhm... windows phone or apple iOs which both are reserved to their own devices ?

    In first place nobody said that google forces anyone to use Android. Nobody ever said that. What I said is that manufacturers that want to use Android are being forced to use other google apps. There is a major difference between these two situations.

    However, what alternative does Samsung and Co have if they disagree to the license?

    - Does the IPhone software work on the Android devices? No, absolutely not... not compatible ... not even remotely.

    - Does Windows work on these devices? Are you kidding me? No, it doesnt.

    - Are there any other OS that can be used? Probably but they are in first place not 100% compatible to the different device models, lack many features and with 100% certainty Samsung and Co would have to completely rewrite their UI, Samsung Experience, TouchWiz, Edge UX, Bixby, Grace UX, etc.

    All Android phone manufacturers require at least one year to update to a new Android version. They need that time to make their software compatible to that new OS version... a OS they already know, a OS they already have code for and good documentations that fits their needs. To make changes to a completely new OS would take them multiple years.

    This in result means that without Android license Samsung could not release any devices for many years to come. It could no longer compete with other companies and probably would run bankrupt. The moment Samsung loses its Android license it also will lose its customers.

    That is how companies get destroyed.

    Your "Android isnt FORCED on phone manufacturers" is where your conclusions are wrong. You have an over simplified view on topics that you barely understand. A view which does not work in the real world.


    If you dont believe me and do what Huor said.... file a complaint to the courts and see what happens. I am 100% certain that they will tell you where you are wrong (just like we did).

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • "Limited grounds for refusal

    1. A country can refuse to surrender the requested person only if one of the grounds for mandatory or optional refusal applies:

      Mandatory grounds
      – the person has already been judged for the same offence (ne bis in idem)
      minors (the person has not reached the age of criminal responsibility in the executing country)
      amnesty (the executing country could have prosecuted them, and the offence is covered by an amnesty in that country).

      Optional grounds – such as:
      – lack of double criminality for offences other than the 32 listed in Article 2(2) of the Framework Decision of EAW
      – territorial jurisdiction
      – pending criminal procedure in the executing country
      – statute of limitations, etc."

    Edit: (do you notice it says OPTIONAL on second half?)


    Exactly Huor, that euro order (said that way in spain, but its EAW) is effective over the entire EU, not just Spain. It IS made to make things easier and remove governamental interference from other countries... "Replaces the extradition procedure with an agile system of delivery of persons claimed". REPLACES the normal extradition stuff! The double criminality check, the judicial side, is only to see if "attack at constitution" or "rebellion" exists as a crime in Germany, and it does, so no problem there. But how was he "already" judged AFTER the EAW was ordered? The law clearly says its not ok if "the person has ALREADY BEEN judged for the same offence" which is a case when the citizen is a habitual in that country before the EAW. How was he "already" judged when he got captured after driving for 30 minutes through Germany, when the EAW was already ordered? It doesnt say you NEED to judge his crimes AFTER EAW capture, in those 60 days time limit. For more detailed info here: viewcontent.cgi?article=1454&context=scholarly_works For example: "Thus, a fugitive cannot raise the double criminality question as a bar to extradition if the applicable treaty or statute - or both, depending upon the forum - is silent." etc how things cud go smooth instead. But anyway, RESULT of that judging IS the problem at germany's judicial behaviour, not the execution of the EAW which is maybe within legal stands. --- Maybe for you its "facts", but I DONT live in the world where few people throwing rocks with sticks+band against the fence of an airport is exactly same as ORDERING thousands of local security units to block/interfere with national security operations, just to protect an illegal referendum ordered by himself too (did I mention it was illegal?), causing population fights resulting in millions of property loss and thousands of wounded people, also that declaration of independence which he "delayed" after declaring it, to confuse authorities and flee country, etc. What part if this "justice" is "fair and equal"? Again if this "justice" was fair, the outcome of that check would be SAME in both countries. Its ok though, since germany, as well as Schengen space which was threatened at OTAN meeting now, wont get in troubles as Puig's moves to replace the legal gov with another legal but not right coup d'etat, where a democratic socialist teamed up with communist parties, independence parties, terrorist protection party in euskadi voted out a president who actually allowed this to happen for some reason, as if he would've quit, this wouldnt've happened. And he actually wants to remove the EAW in the first place, no charges at all, all friends, because it came as a price of the alliance that made him get a pay for life that doesn't even exist in (nearly?) any other countries anymore and should get removed here as well. Problems problems problems. Surprise though that a democratic socialist ruler rejects having democratic ellections since he cant legally run with a minority in gov. What can be done about that though, not much.


    Again, I wasnt talking about illegality, just because it can pass as legal, doesnt mean its right. Same as in game, you know very well there are a lot of things people can do to toxic/ruin the community that cant get banned for, but is still unfair and wrong (right?), even after years of modifications to rules to make them as best as possible.


    @OP: I do understand what you say, and you are correct in everything about the legality of that. But dont tell me that iOS would come without Apple Store preinstalled, if it was possible to run on other devices. Or anything else. It always worked this way, even windows with IE, just that things are changing with regulations, and causing conflicts, despite the fines being legal, due to where the regulations are being aimed at first.


    Late edit again:

    For example trashing an entire game presenting and overviewing thread for spam after months of inactivity already? How was that rational Huor? OP was also there, and there were no posts for months. I dont remember what was there anyway. Spam of pictures maybe? Double post that was actually in different days, because I avoid editing a post after over 24 hours have passed? (I find it unethical to edit after its already been seen by people) I could be wrong, but even if there was spam, normally the spam gets removed, not the entire thread.

    Since the "coincidence" of that deletion of a thread made to present a good space game that was already finished, of being at same time with the post made by Huor saying "go talk to higher authority-EUCourt, end of", showing a justifiable tiredness of the topic, I now feel threatened for exposing and comparing opinions in different countries, where at no point was I offensive or abusive, I think... I said at least twice about respecting opinions and the great persons behind them that I also eternally respect and treat in a friendly manner no matter opinions, even if them being so trustworthy themselves maybe makes them trust things too easy, in my opinion. Such people are not really common in where I come from, because nothing "official" is trustworthy where not even EU found the RO gov as trustworthy, officially. It's just different styles of life... and you dont see the problem behind our difference in opinions not being at me, myself, to attack directly like this, while having a civilized conversation. Therefor Im out of this convo, anyway I think it was already over, since we actually agreed on the topic of the thread, politics was an offtopic for this thread. But ok.

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    Edited 7 times, last by Michael ().

  • Quote

    @OP: I do understand what you say, and you are correct in everything about the legality of that. But dont tell me that iOS would come without Apple Store preinstalled, if it was possible to run on other devices. Or anything else. It always worked this way, even windows with IE, just that things are changing with regulations, and causing conflicts, despite the fines being legal, due to where the regulations are being aimed at first.

    Whats the point about such a hypothetical assumption? Since IOS never would run on a Android device the case for that even NEVER will happen. Therefore there never will be such a conflict of interest simply because incompatibilities. However, if the OS would be compatible then the EU would sue Apple in exactly the same way as google.

    The only difference between these two atm is the compatibility question.




    § 81 No. 4 IRG (Law on International Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters) clearly states that extradition is only justified/allowed if the criminal offense is a violation of law in both countries. It might sound strange to you but "rebellion" is not defined as a criminial act in germany. Based on this law germany can and will not extradict him in this specific case.

    "Abstraction of funds" (a different crime he is blamed for) is a different case. Its a crime in both countries and therefore an extradiction will happen (as it has already been decided) but that also means that spain can only go after him for this specific crime - not for rebellion (this is also dealt with by law).

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • I see. What was heard here is that "rebellion" or whatever it was called as, was a very heavely punished thing in Germany, just that it was not counted as treason or w.e the name. Guess more odd info not really matching over here. Actually, quotes from them:


    "In a first assessment of the case, the Schleswig-Holstein court rejected the charges of rebellion, translating to the German crime of high treason, due to insufficient violence." -- For comparing that violent illegal referendum with stones trowing at airport expansion that happened in Germany.
    And well:

    "After Belgium's decision, Supreme court judge Pablo Llarena sent a letter to the German prosecutorasking him not to commit "the same mistake." Llarena stressed that the European Arrest Warrant "complied with all the requirements" and said Belgium's ruling was "against the principle of mutual trust" between judiciaries."

    --Even though convo is past for me now, it was exactly my point too, about trust, spain is part of the alliance, not some arabic country where people get killed as in your example before. The trust also lost on the portal, of over a decade of... friendship, for some difference in opinions in a civilized talk. I still play Stellaris and wanted to add more images related to end-game levels to the proper thread, which I cant anymore. It is a very long round games as it takes over 80 hours normally and Im not as free as I used to.

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    Edited 3 times, last by Michael ().

  • Treason and rebellion are two completely different things.

    Rebellion never was really considered by german law while treason is covered.


    I am no expert in this but I think that punishment of rebellion as criminal act would violated some fundamental parts of the german constitution. Sounds strange but makes sense since we value peoples rights more than trying to restrict them in fear of an unlikely event. The chances that one of the 16 german regions does a rebellion is almost 0. And only then its rebellion.

    If random people organize to start trouble different laws ally -> criminal organization, etc.

    In case of spains little problem the people that tried the rebellion were legally elected. Thus its a clear rebellion of a region against the country.

    The defails make the difference in how stuff has to be treaten.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • I used a wrong word indeed, which caused misunderstandings. Germany said they cant give him for treason, my mistake saying rebellion, but an existing crime anyway, problem being he got judged for that crime and found not guilty. Headlines are like: "Germany can extradite Puigdemont to Spain for graft, not treason"


    The problem is not that the traitor was legally elected in a region, Franco was elected too, as general of the army and did high treason in Madrid, taking over gov. The double criminality check did pass, the crime exists once translated to germany laws and identified. What didnt pass is that his campaign wasnt violent enough to be called "high treason", thus not guilty of that crime, for saying it was same as a protest against that airport in germany which was not counted as treason. This judging was the out of step move, since its not required AFTER the EAW, only if its already done before, as says the EAW law "the person has already been judged for the same offence".


    "Treason

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more extreme acts against one's nation or sovereign. Historically, treason also covered the murder of specific social superiors, such as the murder of a husband by his wife or that of a master by his servant. Treason against the king was known as high treason and treason against a lesser superior was petty treason. A person who commits treason is known in law as a traitor.

    ---

    Germany[edit]


    German law differentiates between two types of treason: "High treason" (Hochverrat) and "treason" (Landesverrat). High treason, as defined in Section 81 of the German criminal code is defined as a violent attempt against the existence or the constitutional order of the Federal Republic of Germany "


    Puigdemon was trusted with a title (like Franco) and he literally ordered changes in the constitutional law to allow himself more freedom ending in that violent referendum, which is in that quote an "attempt against the existing constitution of Germany/Spain". The crime was accepted as existing, nobody said it doesnt exist. Just not violent enough.


    PS: Anyway all of this doesnt matter or affect what's happening, was just an exchange of opinions which for me became past, when something new happened. What matters to me now is the problems this convo cause and affect me directly now, which I said from the beggining that its off topic and wish it (politics part) didnt count and get ignored (same as how words about my problems now got ignored) as I regretted it from first post, I just find it unethical to remove/edit it before you replied, but already seen, which is "legal" too, but wrong, right? Lots of things legal but not right or fair or just that can be done... anywhere.


    Edit by Forlon
    Thread closed as Michael have asked for it

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    Edited 7 times, last by Martind Forlon ().