Political crap

<p>Its not destroying europe, its trying to keep it running somehow.</p>

<p>Thats pretty hard to do if there is no unity and you can only take passive actions and talk.</p>

@Michael

Just to clarify that.
Merkel is not in the position to make such decisions, nor can I find any reference that such a decision was done.
Every financial decision has to be discussed openly in our parliament, requires multiple levels of approval and then has to be published to the media. Germany is probably the only country in the world where every discussion and every decision is commented by government speakers in a public press conference.
Every citizen even has the right to attend the discussions of the parliament (I did multiple times).
Every year an independent agency checks what has been done with the countries money.
No matter if money is paid or money received such types of payments would undergo serious investigations and receive alot public attention.
Even worse if that are private payments to a government member or payments to a party because the german regulations are very strict here.

And please... dont make any claims about debts.
A few weeks/months ago I explained in detail that debts are actually something good.
The debts keep the economy running.
The problem is that some european countries dont have a balance between their debts and their GDP.
Of course does germany have alot more debts than other european countries but our economical power and therefore the GPD is also a multiple times higher than in other countries. Spain has just 1/3 of the economic power of germany.
If the ratio between debts and GDP gets out of balance too much the country risks bankruptcy. Greece was the leading example of that.
People always make it sound like germany is forcing other countries to something and that germany is responsible for the problems.
Thats wrong, the problems exist because your politicians have done bad decisions 10-20-30 years ago. If your country would be seperate from us we probably wouldnt even really care... but you are not seperate. You are in the EU. We have the same currency and our economic systems are linked meanwhile. If Spain (or Greece) goes bankrupt then it has deep impact on the whole european economy and finanical system. It starts a domino effect that could ruin the whole financial system and the economies in all european countries (which in return has worldwide effects similar to the financial crisis in 1929).
To prevent that is the goal... to get the balance between debts and GDP back is the goal.
The only way to get that done is to prevent that more debts are created because you cant magically increase the economic value of a country over night. The balance between economic power and debts has to be restored but economy takes alot longer to grow than debts. Thats why some european countries have to work on lowering these debts or at least reducing the growth of the debts under the value of the economic growth. Thats actually simple math.
Feel free to blame germany for doing the correct math.
We currently managed to achieve economy growth without making more debts. The way to that point wasnt easy and many cuts had to be made. Thats what other countries dont see.

I probably wasnt 100% clear on that.
Important is the ratio at which depts and GDP increase. If that is out of proportion then troubles sooner or later start.
Countries with high debts/GDP % still might be in good shappe but that generally depends on income and usually somewhat higher tax rates.
High debts by default dont mean anything bad.... it just means people were willing to lend money.

Luxemburg has such a high % because its economy is highly influenced by the financial sector. Stock market and fonds management are key elements which have lead to such values.
Thats nothing bad.

Quote

What exactly bumped Greece's debt to go worse AFTER Germany asked them to pay for it ? The more they paid, the worse it got ?

Germany didnt ask them to pay for anything. The opposite is the case. Germany decided to pay alot of money to greece with the condition that greece has to stop wasting their money (and they really did waste alot of money). The question is if they manage to change the sick system that got them in trouble. Like I said... not the EU or Germany got Greece into trouble... that country would have went bankrupt anyway because of decades of mismanagement.
But to answer the question... what bumped the debt even more?
1. the fact that alot money that was provided by the EU to pay the running costs is lent (lent money = debt).
2. the fact that bit by bit new numbers of the financial situation were released and each time the situation did look a bit worse
3. rating agencies initially downrated the country which made it hard to get cheap loans
4. multiple short term side effects based on restructuring the economic system (thats normal).
5. refugee crisis is costly

And yeah, mistakes happened which initiated alot of problems with all the refugees but generally the decision to help people that need help is a right one.
Its a decision that moraly was absolutely correct but politically it was troublesome.
Personally I believe that it is good that the EU got in political problems. It perfectly shows that the EU can not be an institution where all its members only make use of benefits. The EU has to turn into more...

putting aside that this thread went way off topic I am wondering why people consider a few million refugees such a big deal.
In the next decades we can expect hundreds of millions or even billions of refugees. That can not be avoided thats just a matter of time.

Do I go crazy about that? No. I don't consider all of this a problem. At best I consider it a challenge which requires solutions.
Step by step, to have a negative view on everything prevents that changes can happen.
There seems to be a wide spread populism in europe meanwhile. People which always think to know what the problem is. People which can put the blame on others. Such people however, never came up with any working solutions.

UK threw every rational thinking overboard.
This is for me a prime example what happens when stupid people are allowed to make decisions.
No, I am not telling that the UK people are stupid... the high educated class voted to remain in the EU. The people with a working brain voted to stay.
All facts started that it would be a bad decision to leave. But some idiots decided that opinions are more important than facts.
And now the UK economy is in free fall, because populism won over rational thinking.
I say "let it fall". Thats learning by pain.

Populism and populistic decisions always have led to negative events (2 world wars included).
I simply wont agree with your point of view.... because it is counter productive.

1. still alot of populism without any solutions
2. you generalize ALOT when talking about refuguees which makes it appear like all or most of them are criminals which just want to ruin our countries. Well, this simply isnt the case.
There are many with the right to stay (the biggest part of refugees is from Syria). There are refugees which dont have the right to stay... thats true. The cheer number of refugees made it took so long to handle the situation. Refugees were sent back and now even more will be sent back.
Its just a bit idiotic to believe that this could happen instantly. Every case has to be treaten individually... thats how it works. And that takes time... its not a "I dont like your nose decision".
For the remaining ones the permission to stay is not permanent... when the war in Syria is over (if it ever going to be over) then they are not considered refugees anymore. Those which didnt find a job or other legal reason to stay will be send back then.
3. Germany created new laws dealing with the current refugee situation. Refugees which came to germany for economy reasons can be send back alot easier. Refugees responsible of crimes can be send back almost instantly now. The neccessary steps now can be taken (which wasnt possible before). Like I said earlier... step by step.
4. GB is a service nation. LONG time ago it had a strong industrial economy but... not anymore. As long being part of the EU the country did benefit heavily from London as a financial center in Europe. With the Brexit these times are over. Sooner or later european banks which invested in London will pull out. GB would require to do magic to stop that since apprently they dont want non-britains to work in their country. Objectively the Brittisch Pound lost 21,3% worth compared the the USD in the past year. The Euro lost 4,4% in the same timeframe. The loss of the Euro btw. can be explained by the Brexit. The changing situation made longterm investments in GB obsolete. It is not sure if future investments can be done since the conditions of the Brexit are still unclear. It is not even clear if people are still allowed to work there. Companies which invested in GB most likely have to pull out and move their production and services elsewhere which causes additional costs.
The Brexit was the most idiotic idea ever and the biggest idiots which even promoted this idea dont feel responsible for it any longer. They all pulled out. They started this bullshit but in the end the population will have to live with the consequences. The prognoses of financial experts of the EU and also of GB are anything but optimistic.
Despite relative small effects on the economy in Europe the Brexit so far had more impact on the economy than the whole refugee crisis.
Thats what happens when dumb people are allowed to make decisions. Period!
5. I am not commenting on the spoiler tag.... thats ridiculous and stupid.
6. You dont want a strong Euro btw..... believe me, you dont want that.

cleaned the funny video thread from this mess.

1. A solution always happens in the future.... not in the past. What you do is wish thinking that leads nowhere.
Putting that aside what would have happened if there were no EU?
Of course the situation would be different... each country can make own decisions.... and there are borders everywhere.
However, there is one thing that is not different, wars and economic problems which have lead to the refugee crisis.
If a stream of refugees would have moved towards Europe then the problems for Countries like Spain, Greece and Italy would be even worse.
Protecting a sea border is nearly impossible... and without EU these countries would be on their own.
The refugees would have ended up at the coasts of these countries.
The borders of the northern countries would most likely remained closed. Without EU the northern countries would be in a very comfortable situation while the southern countries are pretty much fucked up.
Of course you could say that the numbers of refugees wouldnt be that high without Merkels comments but the absence of the EU is no guarantee that she wouldnt have made such comments. Its practically the first time in history that this woman had an own opinion and voiced it.

2. Five million people left Syria in the past years... its certainly not wrong to assume that a large amount of them headed to europe.

3. You can blame the local governments for that. There are national laws... its their job to make adjustments if requird. Germany and the EU have no say there.

4. The development of the Euro is mainly because of the financial politics which is trying to keep the value of the Euro low in order to raise inflation and boost the economy. That does not have anything to do with refugees and only to a small degree with the Brexit. For years meanwhile the ECB is flooding the market with money and lot interest. Thats the cause of the development. Goal is to strengthen the economy of all EU countries this way. From 2001 till about 2008-2009 the Euro was so strong that the exports suffered which generally was bad for the whole economy in europe.

5. I said I wont comment on that... its too stupid to discuss about that.

Is this thread about that all others are guilty over local problems, but not the local decision makers - aka politicians?
Are we Germans again faulty of all this mess, instead the local parliaments?

For my understanding this is populism and ignoring facts. Merkel hasnt even a saying in the EU, EU decisions are made in the union of the 27 members and not of a single 1.
People are too lazy to get informed and trust in easy decisions. This world isnt easy and there are no easy and fast decisions (e.g. to build up walls again) to solve complex problems.

If people tend to think having their nation back and be strong as an individual state then they are right to a certain extent (see Britain). I dont see why Brits should have the benefits of staying in the EU without having the duties to stay in. That wont work. Yes the EU has to do a few reforms - but i cant believe performing as a single nation will be better than a conglomerate of states (EU). They have less economical power and their market is smaller. Werent divided states and all the problems that arise with it the problem over hundreds of years of problems and wars between them?

Michael: Borders werent opened for refugees. They were opened years ago. That what the Schengen Agreement was for. Open boarders within Europe. The problem before was that the border countries didnt treated that agreement as it was meant to be. The Dublin Agreement failed too. That Merkel made a human decision to stop people dying or mistreated can be seen critical, but well she didnt opened the borders for that.

The nations made agreements to deal with that years ago and it is up to national decisions whether to agree to regulations or laws or not. That is not for a forced decision by anyone else. Blame your local politicians for it, but not the EU. There are national parliaments.
Does the EU try to enforce certain decisions - yes, they do. But the final decision has to be made from the national parliament. It is up to the political leaders to inform their civilians about this. But if a thing is bad then it was always the bad EU who forced someone to do it. But if something success then for sure it is only the local leaders who benefit from it.

Great Britain wasnt forced to anything. They made agreements years ago. And now they blame the EU. How dares to EU to regulate the consumption for vacuum cleaners -in general the electronic consumption. True some stuff is over-regulated, but not all. And in the end the EU is not something that works independent from the nations - that is for laws, agreements and everything else. Compromises have to be found to make agreements, and sometimes its not always to benefit.

wow

ok... let me explain something here.
The EU is responsible for opening borders for EVERYONE inside the EU. -> schengen accord
Thats something ALL the countries agreed uppon. If you want to blame someone then blame your politicians for agreeing to it.
The outside borders of the EU are still supposed to be closed and guarded by the countries. Infact the EU as a whole even supports these countries doing their job. There are german ships in the mediteranian see supporting local forces. Problem is that these german ships are not allowed to act on their own and always require the cooperation of the local military. There are stupid local laws which prevent effective help down there.
Nobody ordered to open any borders. There was nobody who said "open the gates".
The borders already were open or practically inexistent due to existing contracts that all the countries agreed to.

You say that spain for centuries kept borders closed?
How?
Did you let the people drown?

Is that how you want it?
The only way to prevent that people cross the sea is to prevent that they climb on a boat.
Because one they have reached your countries territory (even when they are still far away from the coast) they are effectively your problem.
You can also not simply put them onto one of your ships and bring them back because then you are violating international law.
So either you let them drown.... or you take care of them and allow them to enter your country.
More option your country does not have.

You think refugees live in luxury and high standards?
Where do you get such fairytales from?
A refugee gets just enough to survive. An average German unemployed gets 4 times more. And that is still hardly enough to have halfway normal life.
There is no luxury for refugees... there is pretty much nothing that would motivate them to stay. Their life in Syria prior the war was ALOT better than it is now.

Btw. you again generalize alot.
You make it sound like all of them came to europe to damage our countries and that they are all terrorists. If true why arent see seeing bombs exploding every few minutes?
Your argumentation is flawed. There are also not hundred thousand of rapes.
Not even the criminality rate is higher than the one of the native population.
Such claims simply dont reflect the truth.
Yes, there were rapes... but not at such high levels.
Reality is far away from what populism claims.

Will this change Germany into a muslim country?
Thats a nice joke.
People make such claims about a few hundred thousand of refugees which are most likely not even allowed to stay.
Then what about the 3 million turkish people that came to germany since 1961?
Did they change our country into a muslim one?
NO
What about the refugees from Bosnia, Kosovo, Tunis, Albania, Iran, Libanon,... etc?
Nope, absolutely no change here in germany.

And yeah, I absolute agree with our vice chancelor here. Given the background his comments are based on he is absolutely right to talk about a specific group in such a way.

There are international laws that gives refugees some certain rights - for good reasons. And it is in the national countries decision to follow those laws. I guess Spain signed those laws too. It is your governments duty to take care of refugees and treat them as they are. It is your governments decision where to "house" refugees and it is your governments duty to take care of your own population and to what extent they get social support. Blame your government if that is not working as you want it to be. Dont blame the EU and in special not Germany for your national responsibilities.

We signed those international laws too, and we take care of those people. Yes it costs money, money we have to invest - bound by international laws. Yes i know the disputes of the poor people that we also have to take care of them too. That is in our national responsibility btw. and not in Spains or any other countries - nor the EU. The EU is here to help each country to solve this crisis - and that can only work if each member takes its responsibility so the load can be shared. That btw isnt working too. So yes we can blame those which are not socialized with those who do.

Countries have to right to protect their borders, sure, why arent the outside countries enforce this law properly? Ah well let me guess its Germany's fault. The Schengen Agreement was meant to ensure civilians within Europe to travel freely and on the opposite take care of the outer borders. One is only working if the other works too.