Planets rotation and other minor issues

There are 16 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by Michael.

  • I'm new to Crossfire though I would join it way long ago if I'd knew about it before, however I'm long time Freelancer player and is a game I love since is still actual even in graphics, not mention there are no games like Freelancer in the market (actually all is about FPSs with few exceptions like Starcraft).


    I must say Crossfire is simply awesome but (there's always a but) it's got its issues.


    One I think it is important, though is aesthetic one, is the fast rotation of planets. Since CF wants to add realism to the game (if I'm wrong I think it won't invalidate my point) planets rotation must be way slower. If we think in the effects (real life effects) of such momentum most planet would have extremly violent atmopheres with persistent hurricanes which means they would be uninhabitables. Another consequence of such rotation speed in smaller objects like moons is that nothing that is not fixed to the ground would be ejected to space due centrifuge force which will be higher than gravitational pull; in fact, the whole planet would be disintegrated since. I didn't do the maths but it wouldn't surprise me if this would happen too with all planets. So I suggest to reduce considerably rotation speed on all planetary objects. (Particularly I find bit annoying that rotation speed, but I understand is a personal feeling not everybody shares).


    The second issue is about NPCs. I can cope they use nanobots and shield batteries, and is something really cool, but if they use nanos and batteries I think they should dodge quite less or at least not so often as they do now (at least in the single player campaings; I think the way they dodge is the reason why in the vanilla version the NPCs doesn't use nanos neither batteries, since that dodging makes them really hard to hit).
    It is insane have to spend 15-20 minutes to kill just 1 NPC, specially when we know that any real air combat doesn't last more than 3 minutes. I know there are topics talking about this issue and I read some of them but I didn't read the real reason to make easier the NPCs: if one must spend half an hour to kill 1 NPC with a well fitted ship the game becomes boring and unplayable. Of course too easy NPCs makes the game boring. Find the right balance is the answer.


    The third issue is about missiles. There are some missiles like Javelin or Slingshot that are dumb fire missiles, but there are others that are homing missiles like Stalker or Windstalker, however (I'm starting to think is a bug) these ones misses the targer like dumb fire missiles. I made a test with Stalker and Windstalker missiles trying to kill rouges in New York ("easy targets") and I missed around 40 of 50 of each type which means they have a 20% accuracy when they should have, at least a 50% accuracy. Considering the crazy way NPCs dodge the only usefull missiles are homming ones but with a 20% accuracy are pretty useless too.


    I'm sure CF 1.9 will be awesome but if it "fixes" these issues to me will me the prefection itself.
    Keep up the good work!


    Final note: If this thread is not meant to be here I apologize in advance.

    Edited once, last by Adamanter ().

  • ok
    thx for the feedback
    problem with these issues is that they are mostly based on FL engine limits or workarounds of these limits


    issue one
    i clearly can understand your concerns about realism on the spinning planets
    to be honest these planets were spinning much slower on the first Crossfire versions but for some unknown reason planets stop spinning all of a sudden if the rotation speed is too low
    the only solution i have found was to raise the rotation speed (so the currently high speed is the fix for another problem)


    issue two
    the difficulty in singleplayer is a well known problem
    i already have reduced it a bit
    it is hard to balance it a bit more as at some point it requires to seperate the pilot jobs from the jobs being used for the singleplayer (which is not the case yet)
    if i have much time i can take a look into this... if i have much time


    issue three
    the missiles are not really the problem
    most likely the problem are the npcs which evade it (and since cf1.82 even use countermeasures)
    light fighters from the singleplayer or the central systems of sirius are very likely harder to hit than very heavy fighters or freighters
    since CF1.8 missiles actually track better since they are faster and the tracking time got raised
    e.g. missile A has a detonation time of 8 seconds (the time that the missile exists), an accelleration time of 5 seconds and a tracking time of 6 seconds
    this will make the missile accellerate for 5 seconds to be on top speed while 6 seconds it will chase the target... after that it it will fly 2 seconds as a dumb fire missile
    (this is just an example how missiles work)
    raising the time that the missile does chase the target will create additional lag to the server
    balancing missiles is not easy but it already has been done by me
    problem is most likely just the clever and fast NPCs

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  • Thanx, your reply is really enlighting.


    As I said, the planets rotation is not too important though particularly I prefer no rotation better than so fast spin, but is my personal liking :)


    I understand the difficulties of balance NPCs but I don't get (sure because I don't have the code insight) how balance NPCs can affect jobs.
    The main problem with NPC is that are overpowered:
    1.- They dodge continualy and with extreme turns which make them extremly hard to aim, thus to hit with guns
    2.- They use lot nanos and batteries which makes almost ineffectives the few hits they take.
    3.- They use countermesures which makes the only weapon that could be effective, homing missiles, practically useless against them.


    I don't know how hard to do this could be but the solutions I see are:
    1.- Make the NPCs dodge a bit less; make them fly more straight to increase the chances to hit them with guns
    2.- Reduce the number of nanos and batteries they can use
    3.- Don let them use countermeasures or reduce considerably their number.
    I think work on point 1 is what will really help to balance NPCs since the other 2 points are expected to be part of the actions of the IA since is what a human player would do: use nanos, batteries and countermeasures. On the other hand, what really makes the NPCs so hard to kill si the insane dodging they do.


    I understand that server stability is mandatory so noting to say about homing missiles, just thank your explanation about how they work, is really usefull information I will keep in mind next time I mount such missiles.


    Another issue I forgot to mention in my first post is that allied NPCs IA is really stupid. In most missions they are of no help at all and they don't kill an enemy NPC even by chance, that's why some single player missions are almost impossible to complete, specially timed ones in which prevent the destruction of certain targets is required to complete it and in which allied NPCs could make it easier if they kill some enemy NPCs.

  • Actually after doing some reading up today OP, apparently a number of planets of dwarf stars theoretically do not even rotate on it's axis due to tidal forces. They rotate around the star, but do not rotate on it's axis due to relative close proximity to the star. Apparently, red dwarf stars are pretty common among all main sequence stars as well. So with that said, why not leave some planets to spin (namely larger ones) and leave the smaller ones with no spin? Is that possible with the FL engine? Or is it all or nothing?

  • Well, the only point I'd have something to say, would be at the NPCs IA, they are made, to be realistic, another 'apparently human or alien' ship don't have to fly straight so you can fire at it, it's you who can improve your targeting to get them down faster, then also have success with human players :D There are from several to many players online who have no problems (so consider it quite easy) in killing other NPCs with class 10 guns which have good targeting when firing at you (at the player), even there are now new and even harder aliens, where you need a team to kill them easely, alone is risky but also done.



    It is true that in some missions tho, the allied NPCs don't make anything good,sometimes cus the allied npcs are some dumb low lvl ships with low class guns, and the targets are some pirates or ships with class 10 weaponry, and allied NPCs dissapear fast, and the other times when both are more or less good, but in the storyline they don't do much damage to allies, but they do make a good damage on other NPCs, having the same weaponry as them. (clear example in x3043 system, where both parties ships get destroyed fast).





    orion : it is possible yes, as simple as 'not' adding a code number to make it stop spinning. But there are enough situations, where actually the little planet spins even faster than any other 'larger' planet :D

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  • Well, the only point I'd have something to say, would be at the NPCs IA, they are made, to be realistic, another 'apparently human or alien' ship don't have to fly straight so you can fire at it, it's you who can improve your targeting to get them down faster, then also have success with human players :D There are from several to many players online who have no problems (so consider it quite easy) in killing other NPCs with class 10 guns which have good targeting when firing at you (at the player), even there are now new and even harder aliens, where you need a team to kill them easely, alone is risky but also done.

    Good point. Level up 'till fit class 10 weapons is something that makes things easier but explain me how to do that before finish Ashcroft missions (mission 2 in the storyline) since class 3 weapons is the top class in New York sistem though there's a class 10 weapons ship in Pitsburg.


    I agree that humans also dodge a lot but there are always at least 2 or 3 seconds in which they stop dodging to aim. NPCs dodging is non-stop and they aim even in a tight turn or making crazy zigzags which is completely unrealistic.
    All my points about NPCs AI are from the point for view of those who like play single player (I know that we could be a minority) storyline missions (both original and CF) and of those that prefer do missions instead of trading to level up.
    Of course I don't want NPCs to be so easy that they become not challenging, I prefer hard kill NPCs since are more fun, but I don't see any fun and challenge in level up to fly a class 10 fighter to be able to finish mission 3 which is supposed you should be able to complete with a Defender heavy fighter with class 2-3 weapons (Lavablade and Stunpulse guns which is what I am trying actually, and despite all my efforts, unsuccessfully because the NPCs always kill the transports before I kill any NPC), not mention how annoying is have the game asking you to go meet Juni constantly while you level up.

  • Quote

    I agree that humans also dodge a lot but there are always at least 2 or 3 seconds in which they stop dodging to aim.



    Not right, duel me online and you may see ^^



    And NPC DO have their moment when they dont dodge.... mainly when they charge on you, especialyl when they approach as a wing from distance, you can take them down fast in that moment, which can be longer if you ofc go backwards.




    But it's true you can't handle high class fighters in such a low lvl ship..... may be a bug or miss.

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  • Quote

    I understand the difficulties of balance NPCs but I don't get (sure because I don't have the code insight) how balance NPCs can affect jobs.
    The main problem with NPC is that are overpowered:
    1.- They dodge continualy and with extreme turns which make them extremly hard to aim, thus to hit with guns
    2.- They use lot nanos and batteries which makes almost ineffectives tshe few hits they take.
    3.- They use countermesures which makes the only weapon that could be effective, homing missiles, practically useless against them.

    Behold the work of op! Even that the NPCs use engine kill too! 8|
    Heres a tip.... fight at close range and stay behInd the enemy.... and make us of the strafing keys....
    Cause NPCs cant dodge lasers if it come directly behind and use missiles via mid-close range

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  • putting the rotation topic aside for a moment as i clearly would want to make it more realistic but have to go by the engines limitation until i find a workaround
    (removing spin from small planets is possible but we are actually talking about pure theory and infact a not 100% realistic Freelancer universe)



    NPCs were build to reflect all possibilities and skills that a player has including the dodging, the use of cms, cds, missiles and even better AI
    reason is clear -> realism and the needs for the multiplayer


    problem is that multiplayer and singleplayer are based on the same settings
    change the multiplayer and the singleplayer will change aswell
    change the singleplayer and the multiplayer will face the negative effects


    since the multiplayer still has priority because without it no CF would exist the start for the singleplayer campaign might still be too hard eventhough i already have rebalanced the mission specific ships several times aswell have given much more chances to earn money to buy good equipment right on the first missions


    the only thing i can do now is checking all the singleplayer ships and their pilot jobs and make them dumb as bread

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  • The SP and MP are split by being 2 different versions, 1.8 on SP and 1.82 on MP.... for the main menu especially. Can't that also be done on more files than the menu ? hmm, like updating the patch AFTER you press the MP button instead of before, so you can also choose SP with different files and settings.


    It was just an idea.... I don't even see such a need for remaking SP because some missions are near to imposible at first levels, going on a traditional way.




    Another idea would be to the new SP character automaticly give a better ship and guns instead that Starflier, so it's easy for him at the beggining, and more to normal at middle and end of it. This way there's no need of any change in the files or launcher :D
    People don't want to spend 3 hours on the first 3 missions neither, afaik.

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  • thats... difficult

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
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    Five percent pleasure,
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  • Please, don't take me wrong. I don't want to make of the NPC's AI a big issue. I know that there are much more important things to fix or develope.


    I don't think give more cash will help with the first missions of the main storyline because you cannot advance to the next level, no matter how much money you collects, untill you completes the mission of your current level which means that you cannot fit weapons of higher levels even if they are available. On the other hand, missions 1 and 2 are "easy" with low level ships (Starflier, Startracker, Patriot, and Defender) as long as you fit the right weapons (stunpulse to rid off shields and lavablade for hull damage), and collect 4 million to fly a Shade heavy fighter (luckyly is possible fly this ship at level 4), which is in Mississippi Battleship, is easy.


    Said this, I must point that some of my problems with NPCs (specially in mission 3) were due maxed graphics settings which my computer didn't handle well though I thought it was running smootly since I didn't appreciate any drop or stop and go (I don't have a top machine but my Athlon X2 3800+ and my ATI HD3200 should be more than enough to move Freelancer with maxed graphics without problems; seems I'm quite wrong), but as soon as I reduced the resolotion I was playing in ( from 1280x1024 to 1024x768 ) and removed some details like space dust and effects I managed to aim better and complete mission 3.


    Let me stress that I'm not complaining or pointing a big problem. As the topic of the thread says, is a minor issue and maybe not an issue at all if happens that change graphics settings makes missions easier. I will keep posting my thoughts about this as I progress in the storyline.

  • I was wondering if there may be a way to take off (or decrease) some level restrictions on ships or equipment to upgrade
    equipment throughtout the campaign?
    If that is possible, it may help getting started by being able to have a ship with slightly better guns, and more choice...
    Getting the Shade or Werewolf in the first SP missions is nice (with good hull/shield protection) but still can't do enough
    damage with for instance justiceIII guns or slow lavablades... It may be a solution to allow use of let's say the NY lvl 5 or 6
    weapons (but keeping the reputation requirements so you still have to do some missions to be able to get them)?


    Alhtough too much good equip might spoil the game campaign...
    I think it is really hard to finish the campaign with only vanilla equipment due to the improves on NPCs, but
    having access to everything early would make it too easy as well... which is not any better in terms of fun.


    It is really tricky, and not easy to figure out the right balance... and in the end Swat_OP may already have found it...
    Even if hard (and I believe he has intented to make it so), it is doable :girl_wink:

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  • no no no
    u made some suggestions that ill consider when im working on cf1.9


    there are possible ways getting stuff easier for the singleplayer like editing how the singleplayer npcs act by changing the pilots jobs
    another possible method would be to rebalance the new york system by adding a few higher class ships without lvl restrictions somewhere and placing some more guns there
    which of the changes will happen is something i will have to see when i start balancing the singleplayer

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • I've been able to do a couple missions without problems after I changed the graphics settings, and since I am flying a Shade they were even too easy (with vanilla ships like Defender I'm sure they would be a pain).
    The missions I noticed are bit harder than they should were precisely those that are fought in clouds. I never had problems in clouds playing vanilla with maxed graphics so I conclude my difficulties to aim with maxed settings are due CF clouds; Im sure if my computer were more powerfull I wouldn't notice anything. I don't know if this means CF clouds need some improvements to allow low end systems run the whole game with maxed graphics.

  • Clouds are, excepting the Inner Core massive ones, on a vanilla system workign for low end PCs, IF you activated compatibility mode for low end graph cards ofc ^^



    Putting settings too high then telliing it's not working on low end PCs isn't a good thing to do :D

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