LR meeting

There are 66 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by Hexebelle.

    well last night there was a meeting about LR, its future and the future of the entire FL community
    CF was represented by several members... so what is your impression/conclusion?

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
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    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
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    Overall, there is no question that the FL community wants LR to continue in some form; many don't care what form, but most of these were not admin's. Admin's of the biggest mod communities are relcutant to follw Louva's lead into some kiind of FL community consolidation, which would apparently include moving whole communities to LR, in some cases.


    I was denied permission to participate in the discussion, despite being a SWAT moderator, clan leader and clan forum admin; somehow Satyr got permission, apparently as "token" CF representative. Louva's appeal centered entirely around HIS vision of what LR should be, and as far as I could tell, nothing concrete was decided, other than that LR will continue, with community support, which will appear in varying forms and degrees.


    Some of the ideas that were put forward were actually counter-productive to each other. For example, Louva would like to create a central hub for FL clans, and give them all server space for their forums, but servers are prohibited from "poaching" members from each other. Seems to me, if you bring all the clan forums togather, you increase the likelihood of players jumping servers, rather than stop it... As a forum admin myself, I would not want to put it under the potential control/interference of another admin for any reason, let alone an actual game server!


    I can only hope that LR at least restores its archive functions, and repairs the apparent damage to its primary site. Louva will go forward with his plans, and is loathe to accept any contrary views, so we can only hope for the best.

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    in all honest m8 it was an exercise in futility^^


    tlr "want to control" the entire fl/modding community under one central hub all acting and communicating through one site.....totally unnacceptable and impracticle imo. each server/mod is different, mod admins have different goals and ideas. under those circumstances it wont work, all mods/communities will require thier own servers, forums etc..


    i kind of switched off after LD launched his personal attacks on OP...being very frustrated that i couldnt spam the irc channel with my opinions of the jumped up power freak^^


    the only thing i can conclude from the meeting is that LD wants to control the entire FL community through Lancers Reactor, and hes trying to pressurise admins into that way of thinking.


    OP's opinions ring true with most of the other admins of the bigger mods/communities, LD didnt like that^^.


    i do hope LR flourishes in the future, but in all honesty if it fails then it fails. atleast SWAT wont fail...we will all see to that.


    hmmm....whats the chances of this post being copied onto lr's new forum, when its up and running?^^
    not that im bothered:P

    I wish I had outlined the ideas as the meeting was going. CA and Dopple pretty much summed up my own impression of the meeting, but since I've always got something to say I may as well add some more...


    While most of the ideas were geared towards the submission of all servers to LR, later in the meeting many admins - especially those of large servers - were adamanty opposed to assimilation in its most drastic forms. Instead they compromised a bit. I may be wrong, but it had something to do with pooling resources on TLR yet retaining our own sites, leadership, and forums. Something about lots of links... oh well, my memory sucks. Didn't sound half-bad though.


    I don't know if this watered down version will ever make it into the air though - Louva was very determined to have it his way - dismissing SWAT for example as allegedly undermining the the LR revival process to discredit us when OP voiced opinions he didn't like. Louva told OP that everyone knew his opinions so he should shut up, that the SWAT-affiliated people should leave the meeting, that if we don't want to be part of his solution we should got off and put our heads in the sand, and when OP's points began to click for a lot of people the man simply took OP's ability to speak away to silence him completely!


    There was a lot of closed-mindedness in this sense, and also in that there were only two provided possibilities with how to proceed with TLR. In all fairness, I think in the end he will need to go along with whatever the FL community comes to an agreement on. The big servers especially will need to be respected because if enough of them opt out LR is screwed even if they do get their new server running. If this matter can be properly approached in a way that can satisfy lancer communities of all shapes and sizes it will succeed in what they want it to do...


    Probably the next step towards that the LR staff needs to realize is that their plan mustn't involve them having administrative powers over the FL community's modders and server admins, and that servers can still rally together to support LR in the ways that it needs without abandoning our own self-interests. Server admins should get together in independent, private meetings to discuss what they want for FL's future and how to accomplish that. From there they could communicate and negotiate this with LR.


    I could be completely off-base here, but that would be a lot more effective than what happened yesterday. My biggest impression of the meeting was that the presence of certain groups was detrimental to the discussive process. The presence of 160 or so people led to a monsoon of spam that many found incredibly irritating - for instance when everyone was asked to say "YES!" if they supported the idea of a continued LR. Also, their staff guided the discussion to imperiously. At times they'd help side-track it to attack certain people or to talk about unrelated things. It kept things from going somewhere. Everyone wants LR to survive, but as OP and I wanted to know, how are they going to do it... specifically? It still hasn't been answered, ambiguous objectives aside.


    Some good news though - the LR staff gave us the impression that they already had a little over half the money they need to get their new server(s). Whatever is going to happen will probably happen soon (weeks perhaps?) if donations continue to come in like they have. It is important that the people who can make a difference in this matter do something to find a universal solution. If the FL community cannot come up with an idea that can work for everyone how will LR? What do you all think? Despite the tone of the post I am optimistic about how things will turn out - just for now I'm concerned with the various, misled paths this "revival" could go down.

    24/7 SWAT CF veteran from sometime before 1.6 up into 1.82. Lots of memories!
    Built 88 chars between DC, BD, UAC,     STC, and freelancers. Ashes to ashes, alas? D:

    Reading these posts and also gaining some insider information, I think we are at an impasse on a number of platforms.


    It is a proven point that SWAT has the best Mod, best "officers" , best clans and more importantly imo, the brightest minds in the game. Therefore wherever we go to attend FL meetings, we will meet with strong opposition to any influence we may have.


    We do it right here, period. Admist all of the internal "family" issues we have, we still do it right.


    Upon the release of 1.8, I firmly believe that CF has reached a new plateau and has evolved, truly into it's own game......literally. So unique that I think that this is the FL2 we have all been waiting for.


    It is in my opinion we submit diplomacy to the other Admins out there who share our vision and bring life to FL as it should be.


    @OP, you know the hurdles that face you in these meetings, since you take a very direct approach in your opinions, much like I do. So why bother with people who continually fight you in LR? Everyone here has had their scrapes with you and certainly disagreements, but one thing is for sure, we support your vision as to what this game should be. Therefore I see no need to change course at all, but only to start getting the SWAT portal as the "icon" of the FL world.


    I challenge any FL mod to be compared to CF and under honest comparisons, be able to stand toe to toe with the CF mod and community.


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    I think SWAT PORTAL is an honest project and an alternative for those feedup with LR doubts...
    The only thing we do here is to offer a place for all those missed players that dont know where to go or how to get started with their space games.


    Quote

    dismissing SWAT for example as allegedly undermining the the LR revival process to discredit us when OP voiced opinions he didn't like.


    That sounds like someone at LR dont want to hear other´s opinions...and that only lead to one way>Fly alone¡¡


    I believe in SWAT, and if LR does help community> Great news...and if it doesnt, i have SWAT, im not lost anymore.

    Quote

    Originally posted by Gunny
    It is a proven point that SWAT has the best Mod, best "officers" , best clans and more importantly imo, the brightest minds in the game


    w00t! [thumb] [thumb] [thumb] Hooray for US! Hey, when is / will there be the next meeting?

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    Fix'd.

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    i remember that more ppl were at the meeting... what about your impressions?

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    hmmm...I can only recall Satyr & Lost Heaven; I was too busy pasting the chatlog from the java applet version, to fully scan the members list... :(

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    when do you guys learn to use trillian... there you have all important messengers in one tool... including an easy working irc module ^^

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    The big LR meeting was 2 days ago... i stayed back commenting it since i did need some time to gather more information, re-reading the logs to be sure that i wont misinterpret something and to let others which attended the meeting voice their oppinion un-influenced by my words. As i am writing this i have very mixed feelings about all the things that were said.



    What was the meeting about? what was the topic?
    Well thats hard to say because in the 3 days before that meeting i asked the LR staff several times and the only replies i got were "we want to see if its worth to go on with LR" and "we have plans but dont want to say something"
    Now that this meeting is over the question about if ppl want LR to continue has been answered with a clear "yes". Honestly i have to say that i dont need a meeting to know that ppl want LR to stay.


    The meeting itself started at 8pm GMT (9pm my time). As you will be able to see at the chatlog i was there a few hours earlier. Basically i was there half the weekend and more logs do exist. But right now its just about this log and the meeting itself.


    In the hours before the meeting many discussions were done. About how LR is going to be. How other community should be integrated into LR. For some reason LR staff members even used expressions such as "eliminating other communities" and "LR is FL and FL is LR".


    What is FL?
    FL is a community of players that play the same game. FL is a splitted community, indeed. But why?
    Well LR wants to be the center of FL. Fine... LR is an international (english speaking) community. What is about the very big german part of the FL players? What is about the spanish FL players? What about the french players? What about all the others which have problem to understand english or that wish not to visit an international community?
    If LR = FL then this does also mean that all those which dont want to be part of LR or which are not able to be part of LR (due to many different reasons)... all those ppl are going to be "excluded" from the FL community then.
    Can LR claim to be FL?
    NO!!!
    Nobody has the right to do this. Its a lie, an illusion, a way to gain powers and to limit others.
    What gives LR the right to decide about the death of other communities?
    Imagine one country of this world start to claim "we rule this world now, you either be one of us or you are no part of this world anymore".
    A sad imagination isnt it?


    For gods sake i was AFK most of the meeting and missed a big part of the beginning.
    well ok... what has been discussed?


    LR wants to unite "THEIR" community.
    For this they have 3 different options.


    Option 1: All communities get a forum at LR and are presented there.
    Hmmm ok - and why would a server community use such forums instead of their own? Sorry to say this but this idea lacks in reality.
    Many servers out there are opponents, many clans are at war with each other... i can already imagine the upcomming troubles. Flames, insults, threats... you can see the differences between clans in every server community already. Now take all those wars, flames, all the troubles and multiply that with the number of FL servers.
    Some communities did even argue at the LR meeting. -> CHAOS!!!!!!


    Option 2: All servers and FL community are going to be forced to close their forums, take their sites from the net and move to LR. Basically they have to give up everything that they created in the past years.
    Some admins voiced their oppinions about this option that this is not possible due to the fact that the server sites have special scripts and features. The Louvas answer was pretty short and clear. Those script simply will be moved to LR and used by the whole community. OK what does this mean? It means that in the past 5 years the server admins, community onwers worked their ass of to create uniqe featues for their community and that now they are going to be forced to publish their stuff. It also means that someone has to decide which feature is going to be used and which feature gets lost.



    Option 3: Well Id like to quote Louva here:


    Quote


    [21:13] Louva-Deus: option 3 is TLR dies and swat sets up his site as the new TLR
    [21:13] Louva-Deus: as he has been spreading in email to all server admins
    [21:14] Louva-Deus: and then the community goes up in flames





    Basically it can be said that many admins were not happy about what has been said but for some reason they stopped voicing their oppinions at some point of time. But when i came back to my PC just to see 4 CF members voicing their worries and 10+ other moderators and admins doing the same and asking for my oppinion i simply jumped in. Ok i did miss the first part of the meeting but since nothing has been decided yet it wasnt too late to say what had to be said. The result was pretty simple... some of the admins agreed with me and heavy discussions were the result. I guess i was muted shortly after that but didnt really notice it due to some private chats.


    Not much later the LR staff members (mainly consisting of EOA members) pushed a vote.
    "You you want that LR does survive and are you willing to do your part?"
    And many... really many ppl on that chat did cry "yes".
    Exactly that was the moment when i had the feeling that i need to stick my finger deep into my throat.
    Ok in the past 2 days ive been talking with many ppl which attended that meeting and i asked them a simple question. "What has been decided sunday evening and what did you agree to?"
    Guess what... they had no idea. No idea about consequences... no idea how LR will look like... no idea how it is planned to be realized.
    Several times it happened that ppl came to the LR chat room to ask exactly these questions.
    No answer was given.
    At the meeting it was said that on the LR page a summary is going to be posted and with the details and the plans for LR. This did not happen.



    What else has been discussed during the meeting?


    1. Servers
    It was planned that they run banners announcing LR
    It also was planned to change servernames and assign them to be part of LR



    2. Structure of the new LR
    Ppl were going to choose option 1 and decided that LR is going to be a hub for ALL FL players. (not that this would be possible)
    To me it seemed that this option one was the less prefered option that louva and the other LR staff members had in mind since it means less control.
    Well the structure was described the following way:
    - a Forum for the community with 4 sections
    - 1st section for the servers, where server communities have their "private" forums
    - 2nd section for the modding, lead by EOA and Universal modding
    - 3rd section for general discussions about FL
    - 4th section for development of games and not FL related stuff
    Looking at this it sounds pretty similar to what we have here at SWAT already, we have modding, we have server, we have clanboards and we have community projects for other games. Everything suggest by Louva did sound somewhat familar... maybe because WE ALREADY HAVE IT and here IT IS ALREADY RUNNING (i just wanted to mention that) [tongue]


    3. The global list server
    As we all know the GLS is going to go offline very soon. Blaster and his friend offered a solution for us to keep it open. Guess what i informed LR and discussed it with the stuff but they were not interested.
    Today ive read the meeting log and found out why. Crazy is developing an own version of the GLS. At the meeting it was also said that this new gls (that of course would be run by LR) will get the option to block FL servers. That means LR does decide which community is part of the FL world and LR does decide which server is allowed to run.
    So lets imagine that Louva has a personal problem with ME (absurd... i know ^^), what would hold him back just to ban CF and SWAT from LR and from the GLS?
    One click and an opposing community is dead. One click and a opposing server is gone. Playing god eh?
    Lets face the facts, it is well known that LR staff members have abused their powers in the past. Even Louva did with this EOA tag code inside the LR forum. Posts were removed from LR for no reason. Ppl with different oppinions were attacked and LR staff members broke the LR rules several times.
    Even at the LR meeting everybody saying something against those plans has been muted by the LR staff.
    Who of you have cried "Yes" at the meeting? You just supported that a group of ppl got the absolute powers over the community and the gls.
    As soon you decide to have a different oppinion you are going to be fucked up. You will be banned from the entire FL community (well you can go back playing singleplayer) and if you are a serveradmin you can already say goodbye to your server and your community. Nice future isnt it?
    -> never trust someone who does speak about "eliminating other community" before the meeting starts [20]
    Yes the LR staff was not much interested in keeping the GLS online for another year... the only comment i got from crazy was "our gls is almost finished". He didnt show interest in how we can keep the GLS online nor what the requirements are. But why should they be interested in a real solution if their solution does give them control over the FL servers?


    4. Anticheats
    Im not sure why satyr was not muted like we others... maybe he was more willing to cooperate. Dunno.
    But i dont agree with the stuff that has been said... especially not about the anticheat.
    It was discussed to drop the existing anticheat tools and develop one big ultimative anticheat tool as GLP
    Cool ... so cheaters only need to find out how that single tool can be avoided instead to solutions for 10 different working tools. Not to mention that everybody would know how this anticheat is working and therefore you see more cheaters very soon.
    Great idea. But actually the differences of the current tools and the facts that the developers kept their methods secret prevented cheats.





    In the end a very counter productive meeting with only outcome that ppl know that LR will go on and try to be a superior power that wants to control the entire FL world.
    Welcome to the future of FL.... or you support one of the other existing communities which will not comply with LRs plans.
    (Station Network, PlanetFiction, SWAT, LancerNews,...)



    Big plans were made at the meeting. Many promises were made. But when ppl asked about how all its going to be realized silence was the answer.



    What i also noticed at the meeting was that there was a guy having technical problems and it were SWAT members which helped that guy while others didnt even care
    so -> [thumb]





    What else has been discussed in the days before the meeting?
    Well putting the flames from Louva aside there was a talk about a new tool developed by EOA.
    Basically that client side tool does change values in the memory while FL is running to change settings and activate features which normally can only get activated with hex-editing.
    Cool. Changing stuff in the memory means that you can manipulate everything in FL. To give out such a tool to the community means to give out a tool that can be used to cheat. In memory you can simply tell FL that you have 1000 cardamine in your cargohold while it original was just 1 unit, you can edit money, you can basically edit every client side value.
    Happy new world of cheating. Looks like i have to invent something that does block this new tool. [20]




    What has been discussed the days after?
    After the meeting i had a long talk with a few admins... and i had a long private talk with Louva. The first time that week that i was not attacked by him... at least not that harsh^^.
    I voiced my oppinion and he agreed that the LR staff failed and did many mistakes in the past. We did talk about the new page for LR.
    Its going to be in php. They want to transfere the old databases to fit into the new site.
    Well ok... nothing bad so far.
    Ehmm yeah.. not all databases can be transfered and included. Only the forum. Bye bye news, bye bye downloads, bye bye content pages.


    Well on monday many ppl came to the LR chat to ask what will happen. No response again. Then BP came online and i already was talking with serveral other ppl.
    Someone of the staff said that the new LR server wont support downloads anymore and that its more a database of links to the other communities where the downloads are going to be hosted. If this is true... well i dont know... but its what has been said.
    BP didnt seem to be happy to hear about this. (BP didnt attend the LR meeting due to private stuff and actually he didnt attend many other LR meetings before so he wasnt aware what is really going on there)
    I had to leave the chat before i got the chance to talk with bp in privat.






    I hope that i didnt forget too much of what has to be said... but i guess thats it... more will be added as soon i know more.
    I am not badmouthing here... I just voice my oppinion and tell the truth (which easily can be hidden behind nice words and illusions)
    DONT SET EVERYTHING ON ONE CARD!!!! YOU MIGHT PAY A HIGH PRICE
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    (if you want to read the log here it is: LOG)

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
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    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    i dont see a chance to change anything on what lr staff plans to do in future. we dont like it, so just make a cut and leave it as it is...

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    hmm
    in the past days i was told to think more about the entire world of FL instead just about what is good for SWAT
    there is just one problem... originally i am not responsible for those other communties or the FL world... im responsible for SWAT and the ppl here
    I once was responsible for LR too but these times are over
    unfortunatly being responsible for SWAT means to support FL and therefor the FL community, other mods, other servers and many players which basically means to become responsible for somewhat more than just SWAT (its some kind of circle)


    yes we cant change plans, we are not in the position to do this and will never be in such a position again
    but we can offer alternatives for those which want to use them
    nobody gets forced... nobody gets hurt
    we provide what LR cant provide anymore, we offer solutions that are out of reach for LR
    and if stuff gets abused at LR then we have a save harbour for those which dont want to be thrown out of the FL community just because someone didnt agree with an oppinion
    we keep the independence of the different servers and community while we offer what LR has lost


    We offer a platform for those communities where they can discuss stuff, advertise servers, post news, we host downloads, we support modding, we host information and if possible we offer an alternative to LRs GLS (maybe by keeping the original GLS online, maybe by taking over the original GLS software).
    In many areas we already can offer more than LR.


    The only problem is that other communities dont know about this alternative yet.
    Which communities voices their concerns at the LR meeting? Which communities were completly against it?


    CF
    Flak88
    Discovery
    Asgard
    Jolt
    HamburgCity
    ...


    Hey thats almost half of the entire FL online world and for sure there are more.
    What i have in mind... what we always had in mind with SWAT was to extend possibilities and not to limit them.
    Its not our intention to tell those how they have to run their sites or that they have to move them to us or whatever.
    If they need downloads they can come to us, if they have mods which need to be hosted they can come to us, if they want to discuss about FL or other games they can come to us, if they need help with modding they can come to us, if they want to help with the GLS they can come to us, if they want to present their work and their servers they can come to us, if they want to be part of community projects then here is the right place for them.
    All they have to do is to show some fairplay towards the others.



    We dont offer the only solution for all of FLs problems, we are not the FL community, we dont claim that SWAT = FL or that we have the ultimative FL community...
    After all the only thing we have to offer is an alternative to something which looks pretty much like complete control over the entire FL community.

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    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    Cool. Another discussion about TLR.
    Want to hear my impressions?
    I was at this so called meeting but got muted instantly. LR=FL? FL=LR? They must be dreaming. We all are FL and we all should have been able to be heard at this meeting but this was not possible. LR sympatisants got the right to speak while other people which have a critical oppinion about TLR were excluded from the discussion.
    But in the end we are those which are going to be forced to agree to the decision of a minority in FL. Not with me!
    If LR will turn their plans into reality many players will stop supporting mods and servers. Many will leave FL and from what I have read at the meeting many are going to be forced to leave FL.


    I have seen that SWAT and many other FL sites have offered to host the LR site to get it running again but this possibility was not even considered by the LR admins.
    And now I have to see that an possibility to keep up the global list server has been turned down? For what? That they can get their own version of the GLS online and control every single server in FL?


    Imagine there is a server which has a special feature and LR wants this feature for its own servers.
    "Give us the source code or we will close your server"
    That is what will happen to the new world of FL. Pure Domination by LR or should I better say EOA?


    The only real TLR member at the meeting was eraser and he was not even allowed to chat-admin while all others which claimed to be from LR were EOA members.


    Louva is leader of EOA
    Strail
    Friendlyfire
    and many more


    Most of those which were allowed to speak at the meeting could have worn a EOA tag. We are the FL community and not they. They have no idea how to realize their big plans. They have shown their incompetence and abusive behaviour in the past.
    My TLR forum posts were removed not long ago just because a moderator didn't like them. I know the rules are TLR and for sure I didn't break them a single time.
    The posts got removed because I had a different oppinion than a TLR moderator and I was muted at the TLR meeting on sunday like so many others which had a problem with the decision. These new TLR staff members already abuse their powers and they will go on.
    Their plan does not look like saving FL, it looks more like slavery. It's a pitty that many people have agreed to give their freedom away last sunday.



    If the SWAT Portal is an alternative to LR, an alternative which can face LR and support independent communities then I am willing to support it in every possible way.
    Who of you is willing to help me convincing other FL communities to support this place instead of LR?

    i am already fed up with tlr, and will not use it anymore.

    We sit together,
    The mountain and I,
    Until only the mountain remains.
    - Li Po

    Quote

    i am already fed up with tlr, and will not use it anymore.


    Hehe, this is a moot point, since LR no longer has any functional content, apart from the other mod server links... [7] The most important point of contact is the other mod admin's, since it is usually against forum policies to "advertise" another server. The exception might be that if another server's forum has an existing thread about the "future of FL", and anyone here is registered on that forum, then you may openly discuss OP's points without breaking any rules :D So, if anyone here also frequents another mod forum, by all means, watch for such a thread, or even perhaps start one (but be careful to focus on FL, not SWAT), so the discussion with other communities can begin in earnest.


    Keep in mind, though, that time is short, so it would be good to start TODAY!

    My rig: i3-4130 Core Duo (3.4Ghz), Gigabit GA-B85-HD3 mobo, 8Gb PC1600ram, Samsung 2x 80Gb SATA RAID, Intel Integrated graphics, 3 optical drives, 23" Asus HD monitor + peripherals


    Character names: Centaurian_Alpha & CA derivatives
    Founder: Independent Operators' Consortium (established 2006)

    COOL TO BE INSULTED AND ATTACKED BECAUSE I HELPED SOMEBODY




    signew.jpg


    cfmoddblogo.png5904.png5904.png
    http://www.moddb.com/scripts/topsite.php?ts=4766


    Only dead fish swim with the stream.
    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

    see this as well..