Suns burning

There are 10 replies in this Thread. The last Post () by Shockwave.

  • due to the fantastic weather outside and the few discussions about stars and blackholes which appeared here (more or less serious topics) ive decided to get the ball rolling with a few more or less serious discussions about similar topics
    I keep the explainations simple as not everybody here has deep knowledge about this stuff


    -> the sun
    what keeps it burning?


    the sun emits light... so it produces actually a large amount of energy that is responsible for life on earth and many other processes in the sol system
    the amount of energy is extremly high -> 4.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 watts (the largest powerplant on earth would need 25.000.000.000 years to produce that amount of energy).... oh and ehmm the sun its constantly producing that amount of energy


    possible ways to create energy are:
    - burning some matter
    - chemical processes
    - gravitational contraction
    - direct matter to energy conversion
    - fission
    - fusion


    1. burning matter was an imagination that started to appear centuries ago
    we could imagine that the sun is filled with wood, coal, oil, whatever and burn it (of course assuming that it has the same mass as the sun)
    the sun would burn... it would emit the same amount of energy... and in just about a few ten thousand years (depending on what you burn) the lights go off because there is nothing left to burn anymore
    ok... thats not an option (afterall sun is burning for quiet a long time already)


    2. chemical processes are a pretty ineffective way to create energy
    some of you might remember time in school when you did experiments with different substances... you have put them together and depending on what you took you either got an endotherm or exotherm reaction
    the most energy efficient creation is to combine 2 hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atm... result is some water and some energy
    just like i said this reaction is the most energy efficient but still very very ineffective (thats why i use fuel for my car)
    ok taking the mass of the sun and assuming that the sun would have enough oxygen then this chemical reaction would let the sun glow for about 18.000 years
    throwing away this assumption and using the real about of oxygen that the sun hold we could expect that the lights go off in just 30 years


    3. gravimetrical contraction is something cool
    thats because you can see it on earth too... when you go down into coal mine you will notice that its getting warmer down there
    gravity causes that more and more mass gets compressed... preassure raises and with the preassure the heat raises too
    side effect of heat is light emission and there we have our energy again
    it has to be said that the sun has a very high mass and therefore an extreme gravity so the conditions for such heating is actually good
    The sun could shine for about 30 million years this way.... pretty good actually
    but not good enough considering the age of the sun (4,6 billion years)


    4. direct matter to energy conversion is the most effective way to create energy (and actually the most complicated and most unlikly)
    here we have energy creation in its purest form with 100% efficiency
    explained short: it would rip atoms apart and create pure energy
    the sun could burn this way for 100.000.000.000.000 years (which is MUCH longer than the universe does exist)
    problem is that protons (the atoms core) are extremly stable and i believe that there is no natural force in the universe (except the big bang) which is able to do that -> but i might be wrong here


    5. Fission happens daily on our nuclear reactors here on earth
    You shoot with a neutron on a heavy atom and split it. That causes an exothermic reaction which releases a large scale of energy.
    Actually a pretty effective way creating energy but there is a problem... it requires heavy atoms.
    The sun does mainly contain light atoms (hydrogen or helium). So such a reaction is very unlikly.
    Calculations about how long the sun would burn if it would consist of heavy atoms are possible but highly depend on the kind of heavy atom (after all there are differences between uranium, plutonium or other heavy elements). So the results vary.


    6. Fusion is cool coz its actually the opposite of Fission
    With fusion we would merge light elements with each other to create heavier elements
    e.g. take 2 hydrogen protons, create enormous preasure and heat (caused by gravity) and the final out come will be 1 helium atom (more or less)
    thats how the sun does work
    it fulfills the 2 neccessary conditions... 1. high gravity due to the high mass and 2. light elements such as hydrogen
    but where does the energy come from?
    while merging the hydrogen atoms loose mass (best description i can give when keeping it simple)
    e.g.
    mass of a hydrogen proton = 1
    so the mass of 2 hydrogen protons (needed to create helium) = 2
    but the mass of the created helium would only be 1.99 instead of 2 (just an example)
    the missing 0.01 are energy
    just to get the picture about which amounts we are talking:
    around six hundred million tons of hydrogen are converted into 596 million tons of helium in the Sun every second (the difference in mass is the amount of energy created)


    The sun has been burning this way for 4.6 billion years and will do the same for another 5 billion years with nearly the same rate of energy output



    What happens when there is no hydrogen left anymore?
    ok lets see what ive remembered over the years ^^
    the fusion of hydrogen was the only reason why the sun did not collapse during the past billions of years because fusion causes a preasure inside the sun which is a force working opposite to the gravity which would normally compress the sun to a singularity (in case there wouldnt be other forces preventing that in the end)
    ok fusion works opposite to gravity but fusion has stopped now coz there is no hydrogen... so gravity will work and the sun will shrink now
    the cool "feature" of gravity is that it creates preasure and heat again once the mass is compact enough
    a 2nd cycle of fusion will start as the sun got that incredible hot that now helium atoms will merge
    theoretically this procedure happens over and over again until iron is getting created but every new stage of fusion creates less energy but requires more heat
    our sun is too small to create even more heat and continue the fusion
    iron btw. is the ultimate border of fusion as further merging requires more enery than it would produce (it would be an endotherm reaction)
    at that point fission becomes more effective but that would require (as explained above) the existence of more heavy elements.



    well i explained that now in the most simple way i could... i hope it was not too much (yet)
    oh and we are talking here about facts and not about mysterious planets which pass our solar system every 3600 years ^^

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  • The end ?


    too much Iron, no hydrogen, ultra massive, Red Sun, KA BOOM (Supernova), if it's big enough, ultra density matter fusions in center and makes a black hole.


    End of a 10 billions years story :D

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  • actually not

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  • yeah, teh story never ends, it eats some planets, or suns, or make an own galaxy, throw out some materials and make more galaxies or destro ysome, etc etc

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  • no - i meant
    "ultra density matter" yes
    "ultra density matter fusions" nope
    i believe you mixed up something

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    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
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  • Well are this 4.000 yotta watts the overall sum of energy produced or is it just the emitted light? Because there are other products from the sun that also create energy, e. g. cosmical winds, magnetic output, heat, radiation of invisible light...
    Before the sun collapses it will increase its mass and grow (dunno how much but the overall waste of energy it produces will let the sun grow constantly). When it grows then the question is - how long could we use this energy before we burn ourselfs? Becuase then no one cares about how long the sun will burn ;D


    And in opposite of suns the black holes are more heavy and dont emit light (at least no visible) - but they produce energy as well - guestion how long could the energy of a black hole been used in oppsosite to suns. And the pressure in black holes is much higher than those of suns as well - are black holes also burning (with invisible light - actually heat is invisble light) - are they generating more heat?

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  • Huor: For this discussion light = electromagnetic radiation, so when OP talk about light it's from low wavelength radio wave to gamma radiation. It's all light, all photons.


    As for black hole, they emit nothing (except for hawking radiation). You can't get energy out of them, tho you can extract a lot of energy out of the mater falling in the black hole.


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    Edited once, last by Myric ().

  • Black holes emit enough radiation - you can see them clearly on xray filter cameras and you can even measure the radiation.


    As black holes are massive - more than suns the pressure in it is enormous. Dunno if we can talk of pressure here but at least the gravity is huge - more than those of suns. So there must be something that is usable ;)
    Except the physics in black holes are totally different and we would need a 2nd Albert Einstein or Newton to form physical laws^^ Anyway the imagination of using the energy of black holes is really great as that would solve all of our problems as well. Probably thats what happening what OP has described above what seems to be impossible as there wont be too many heavy atoms - but in black holes you should have many of them as the force is most likely concentrated into the center of the black hole and the center is one huge hyper massive thing ;)

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  • No Huor, they do not. The matter falling into the black hole emit lots of radiation but not the black hole them selves. Once something go past the event horizon nothing can get out (except very slowly by a quantum effect know as hawking radiation). A good way to visualize what the event horizon is to think of it as a sphere around the singularity at witch point the orbital speed is the speed of light. Since nothing can go faster then light nothing can get out past that limit.


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  • to spoil a bit and to stop the confusion....


    like every fast spinning object blackholes have a electromagnetic field (similar to the one that we have surrounding earth)
    every particle which falls into the black hole had to pass this field
    some of them dont really pass it but start to move along that electromagnetic field and get thrown out of it again at points which - if we talk by pictures - can be described as "poles"


    on earth solar radiation hits our electromagnetic field... the particles move along it and on north and south pole you suddenly start to see lights in the sky
    similar procedures (but much more intense) produce the jets of black holes
    that btw. is reason why these jets dont come out of the blackhole itself but come out of a point several thousand kilometers above and below the black hole

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    Don't discuss with idiots. They only drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience there.


    This is ten percent luck,
    Twenty percent skill,
    Fifteen percent concentrated power of will,
    Five percent pleasure,
    Fifty percent pain,
    And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

  • And then that expelled matter travels huge, even intergalactic distances!


    Yesterday I took a look at the topic, wanted to comment, but got lost when browsing informations online on Sun, neighboring stars (56 systems in about 20 ly distance?! WOW!!!) and on how Sun will (theoretically) end -> red giant, then white dwarf + planetary nebula, then just a white dwarf...


    Ah the circle of life.

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