PvP in Elite Dangerous

Recently was started very interesting thread about PvP experience & tips & tactics. Although PvP is used only by small % of ED players, tips and knowledge how this work can be very useful for everyone who like to play in "Open".

Quote from Truesilver;4581379

... Everything I am about to say applies only to PvP between players with months if not years of high-end experience, in apex combat ships, fully RNGineered, and with hundreds if not thousands of victories.

My address is drafted as if given to someone who wants to get into that game but hasn't yet.

I won't deal with stuff that are not the subject of widespread misconceptions, eg everyone knows about fitting lots of modded shield boosters.

Finally, I may occasionally use my favourite acronym, 'PPvPP&P' a lot to reinforce the 'apex' bit - it stands for 'Properly PvP Prepared & Piloted'.

[heading]FIVE CORE POINTS[/heading]

[subheading]1. All apex 1v1 PvP in ED is varieties of face tanking[/subheading]
The game does not permit 'staying on his six' or anything like that due to the availability of FA-off and the fact that maximum FA-off reversal speed is equivalent to max (unboosted) forward speed.

You need to understand therefore that although you may be in an Eagle and he may be in an Imperial Clipper he will still spend almost all of his time facing you.

This doesn't mean small ships are inviable (I'm in a Courier at present) and 'evasion tanking' is real. And of course the better duellist may get 85% of time on target to 75%, winning the fight that way.

But you have to understand that all notions of something other than a variety of face tank, when you're up against the game's bad boys, go out of the window.

Disregard all videos in which someone stays out of someone else's fire arc consistently (including the ones that I post!) as merely showing a more experienced player defeating a lesser one.

Anaconda forces FdL to face tank, PPvPP&P. So it has always been.

[subheading]2. Ramming went out with the Ark[/subheading]

If you let someone ram you 1v1, with reason to believe that this collision will help your enemy more than you - then you just learned something.

Never permit a ram if you are in a ship like a FdL unless facing something much less massive. No FdL pilot should ever permit a FAS or Clipper to ram them.

Because ramming is so easy to avoid (at least 2 pips to sys unless having Enhanced Drives, FA-off if necessary, reverse if necessary, better to use two lateral inputs than one) it has no relevance to apex PvP and should be discounted from any serious strategy.

Even in wing fights, fewer silent runners and a general raising of the skill floor has reduced the threat of ramming. It had very little bearing on either season of the PvP League, for example, even in 8v8 battles.

You will just have to shoot him.

[subheading]3. When your shields drop, you are dead, cuz modules[/subheading]
Bi-weave hybrids, hull tanks, silent runners, anything without a strong base shield, these have no place in 2.1 / 2.2 PvP because of a host of deadly changes to the game, including:

- Emissive special, making you visible at all times
- Missiles destroy drives and all externals
- Whenever you fire weapons you become visible to target and entire enemy wing, even in SR
- While visible, all weapons including gimballed weapons can lock to any internal or external subsystem (this not a change)
- Huge gimballed weapon, even unmodded, on any critical subystem = death
- Super-penetrator rail gun = death
- Corrosive = slightly slower death
- Defensive mods like strengthened drives or armoured powerplant or whatever achieve nothing
- Most likely when you die you will have 2,000 + hull hit points remaining

[subheading]4. To keep those shields up, 4 pips, 4 pips, 4 pips, 4 pips[/subheading]
4 pips to sys improves shield resistances, after all other calculations, including after stacked resistant boosters, to all types of damage, including collisions, by x 2.38.

There is practically no situation in which you are taking or exchanging fire when you would be better off without 4 pips to sys.

Playa-killa: 4-0-2 pips. Victim: 1-1-4 pips.

Sustained DPM from relatively low-draw but high damage weapons (eg multis) plus 4-0-2 = win.

Does this point, combined with point number 1, mean that a lot of apex PvP = two guys facing each other, with a lot of FA-off, with 4-0-2 pips? Oh, yeah ...

[subheading]5. Dual-banked SCB's = victory, except for Feedback Cascade Rail[/subheading]
Combined with points 1, 3 and 4, SCB's keep shield up.

However, entry-levellers tend to bring SCB's in smaller slots, typically set to fire alone.

It is almost always desirable to bring at least one dual-banked set of SCB's as the primary solution, i.e. two sets of SCB that trigger together. You may get away with less in 1v1 against a low DPS build but in a wing fight your SCB will be burst through. (This is ship specific of course, a Cutter does not need to dual bank.)

In many ships (eg FdL) it then becomes desirable to downgrade the shield to a smaller slot and use a prismatic, eg, the awesome combo popularised by PvP legend Morbad (flies under Backer name) of c4 Prismatic plus dual-banked c5 + c4 SCB.

However, the feedback cascade rail is a game-changer. For the first time, the 'big three' have lost supremacy 1v1. The feedback cascade rail literally denies access to much if not most of the enemy's health reserve.

So, plan to bring SCB's but plan to block your opponent's SCB's. And knowing that your opponent might block your SCB's, maybe think about how you will deal with that...

[subheading]ALL THE ABOVE IN PRACTICE: The easy kill[/subheading]
So, in practice, let's describe a very easy kill: entry-level PvP-er interdicts apex PvP-er.

Entry-level PvP-er:

- Thinks he might be able to 'stay on six', doesn't understand why enemy always facing him
- Thinks he might get a ram (once realising gimballed weapons won't hit target...)
- Thinks he can fight on when bi-weave drops and wait for it to come back up
- Moves pips out of sys while exchanging fire in misguided attempt to 'manoeuvre better' or 'do more damage'
- Didn't bring any or many SCB's, no feedback cascade rail

Apex PvP-er:

- Uses FA-off and reverski to stay on target almost the entire time, in whatever ship
- Will not permit ram unless favourable based on mass
- Knows that whole fight depends on whose shield drops first
- Keeps 4 pips to sys except when a clear opportunity to do otherwise presents itself
- Uses dual-banked SCB's to retain shield, uses feedback cascade rail to deny enemy SCB's

Result: an easy kill, entry-level guy loses shields in a couple of minutes then dies in seconds, with apex guy still on two or three rings with massive SCB reserve remaining, could fight for another 30-40 mins easy

DISCLAIMER: RULES ARE MADE TO BE BROKEN: Yes, not everyone amongst the experienced does all 5 of the above. I do not currently uses SCB's (I darn well use a feedback cascade rail though!) Alexander the Grape famously seldom used sys pips. BreakfastMelon is currently flying a bi-weave Anaconda (?!) Z4.Mafia and Pipko are both shieldless, etc. etc. But a lot of this depends upon reading the scissors/paper/stone, eg, if you fly shieldless, not fighting a guy with emissive plus four pack hound missile racks ...

The above will, I hope, be of assistance to those who need familiarity with the rules before we come to the exceptions!

o7

TRUESILVER

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Another thread which very likely may lead to some future changes (PvP & PvE combat): Dogfighting in E:D and the go-to tactic of reverse face-tanking

Personally my favourite is this one, but curious how it will evolve further ...

Quote from vindicator jones;4587769

Oh dear. not this again.

Sigh...

I understand that for players in small ships it is very frustrating to try and out duel a reversing anaconda or other large ship. But the problem isnt with Elite Dangerous, it is with peoples expectations of what this game should be.

There are quite a lot of people who want a forwards only dog fighting game similar to Xwing vs Tiefighter or jetfighter combat game. These people are expecting to take on slow lumbering ships with strafing runs and using agility to run rings around these large ships while avoiding fire.

Sorry, but this is NOT what elite dangerous is about. In space you have the freedom to move in any direction using thrusters. Large ships with big thrusters will also turn and move quickly, albeit slower than small ships. If a ship cannot get its weapons system locked onto a target, because they are always trying to get behind them, then its a perfectly legitimate tactic to reverse thrust to maintain your forward fire cone.

Also, commanders expecting to 1 vs 1 an anaconda in a viper or even vulture are expecting that they SHOULD win. I'm sorry, but NO.. that is your first mistake. You are in a small fragile (compared to the anaconda) ship, you should be at an extreme disadvantage, you should have serious second thoughts about taking on more powerful heavily armed ships unless you know for certain that the large ship either is inexperienced in combat, or is not setup for combat.

The only advantage you will ever get being in a small ship is when you hunt in packs. Get 3 experienced viper pilots against 1 Anaconda, and that Anaconda is going to have a very bad day. He wont be able to face plant and reverse thrust, because you can all take turns strafing the target from various angles, forcing the anaconda to proactively respond, rather than just keep reversing.

Elite Dangerous is NOT a dogfighting simulator, if you want to dogfight, go play CQC or take on another small ship in your small ship.

Even if your in a FDL, taking on an anaconda or corvette should still be a risky proposition, but get 2 FDL's onto the anaconda, and the anaconda is toast.

The reason why I love Elite Dangerous so much is that you are constantly faced with a choice. Do I engage this target, or do I accept that maybe I am biting off more than I can chew. Ships handle just like they would in real space (well, to a degree anyway) and they can freely move in any direction. You have to balance your choices with your skill ability, ship and build. I was in a battle cutter the other day when I was interdicted by 2 player FDL's I had to make a decision, do I stay and fight or run. Now even though I was in a battle cutter, I had no SCB's left and I already had module damage, so I decided to run. Maybe it was a cowardly decision, but its those kinds of decisions that make Elite dangerous a great game.

I think how FD have handled FAOFF is also extremely well done. Sure it dosent work like how exactly it should, but its understandable for balancing purposes. Flying with FAOFF takes finesse, especially if your reverse flying FAOFF, and nerfing that is just going to be silly. FAOFF takes skill and compensates for the ability of being able to fly backwards at full speed.

Please stop expecting Elite Dangerous to be a combat dogfighting game, its not. It is a Space Simulator where you are not a hero, you are not invincible, and you are not always going to get the fight you want. Big ships should be extremely dangerous, and taking one on in a 1 vs 1 environment should be extremely dangerous.

Very experienced combat pilots will know how to minimize risk by trying to sit in the larger ships blind spots where their weapons will have minimal cones of fire. Even a reversing anaconda has places where you can minimize taking damage, albeit maybe only a small amount. But if your in a FDL or Python, this small advantage can help quite a lot.

Is reverse flying taking away the thrill of dogfighting, perhaps, I wont deny that.. but is it realistic? does it make sense as a legitimate tactic? 100% yes.. I dont want Elite to be an action game, I want it to be as it is, a semi realistic space simulator. If I want to dogfight, I will get some mates together in vipers and head to a planets canyon and REALLY dogfight.

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