TLR back online

@ Apollo

Thank you, Apollo, for posting such positive feedback on your experience with SWAT. I'm sure everyone here appreciates the praise of a fellow gaming community, and it means a lot that you took the time to post your thoughts.

Likewise, I am sure that OP and the SWAT team will continue to ensure support for you as long as you need it, with no strings attached.

I wish you and your community continued future success!

@ Huor

I understand what you mean about 2nd chances M8. But I personally think that Louva has far over-stepped the 2nd chance he could have been given. Racism is inexcusable (imo) and control freaks don't change their stripes in my experience.. But ultimately, his fate is up to who-ever else has some power at TLR, and I really don't give a shit what they do, as long as they stop insulting OP and SWAT.. See you in space soon M8!

hmmm... Just to be clear, I dont mean SWAT and TLR working as one. I just hate to see friendships damaged.

Trust me I am still very angry at the fact OP was insulted repeatedly over a long period of time and nothing was ever done about it. One time especially sticks in my mind, the one where I think it was strail made a "talking head" image to attack OP because OP told someone hex editing was a poor solution to their issue. I was shocked that such a personal and vicious attack would be tolerated. No moderators nor admins over there had the decency nor courage to stand up and say "that is wrong". Not one damn word.

An alternative such as SWAT must exist because of the potential for further abuse.

@ Apollo, I agree with Mizi, great post!! Thankyou for your support of SWAT

The conflict that's being discussed here started even before I got involved into FL modding. So, I have no idea when and how it started in the first place, but it's no secret there were hostilities going on around (and inside) TLR during previous several years, reaching their pinnacle in the recent months. Never thought that modding scene could involve such harsh and unhealthy competition, and never encountered anything like it elsewhere. I believe the original cause was the excessive will of many people to show and prove that they have better modding, administration, design, and community leadership skills than everyone else, that the mod/server/site/forum they are running is better than others, getting more downloads or more player attention. Over time it all just developed into personal hatred of certain individuals towards each other. And since the individuals unfortunately appear to be to be admins of FL communities, the hostility spread along community members as well.

Seems that everyone forgot that mods are made to make the game more versatile and appeal to wider player base. Every modder, in theory, should be interested in their competitor's success as much as he/she's interested in success of his/her own mod. Also in theory, ethics should be prevalent in how mod makers treat each other, and constantly referring to own mod as "most", "best" and "THE one" is very far from any ethics. It's for players to decide, and since tastes differ, calling one's mod the best would be true only for part of the playerbase.

Anyway, to more recent events - since arguing about mods is minor trouble compared to what happens now. With TLR down and global server down, it's inevitable that Freelancer will lose a large percent of its previous playerbase. As if it wasn't enough, right now, when TLR is back, we have two communities competiting with each other, and two possible future "global list server" solutions. I was present at TLR chat meeting for a short while. The constant spam that was going on there made any normal discussion impossible. One of Discovery admins was there for much longer than me, and several days later got back to me saying that I should never deal with TLR or their admins again cause they want to put everyone under their control. Never got much detail over what was actually offered about uniting all FL communities within TLR, but it's obvious that any offers that require placing own forums/portals under someone else's administration and under TLR banner is not an option for most FL server owners. The idea, if it ever existed, was dropped shortly afterwards, since right now TLR only offers placing links to server websites and forums. What's wrong with that I cannot see. I also cannot see what's wrong (or surprising) in the fact that rebuilding TLR mod/tool database takes a long time. Lancer's Reactor, despite of technical issues that were present before the shutdown, and even despite the lack of content after it was re-launched, is the place that many people still consider to be the central hub of all English-speaking FL community.

When I got the e-mail from SWAT offering hosting space/updates/other services on the portal, I was quite surprised. There's nothing wrong about SWAT in general, but for a community where members were well taught to praise the work of local moders and undermine (if not despise) the work of everyone else it's quite strange to act as possible TLR replacement. The example is right here. R8R said in his previous long post that generally he'd prefer TLR to exist and prosper, but without Louva in charge. However, in his post dating January 3rd he did not mention his name at all, while still posting lots of negative stuff about TLR. bakedpotato later said that the info provided was mostly lies, yet no one even bothered to ask what was wrong, with everyone busy with endless praising R8R for doing good job, and flaming TLR admins. Since there was no relevant posts on TLR itself describing why was it shut down, the picture is again pretty vague. Maybe bakedpotato should simply post what actually happened? Anyway, returning to the SWAT offer. If I can use SWAT as a host for Discovery mod in addition to TLR, I'd use such opportunity. But what about posting news, or discussing anything in forums? I expect that I would get comments similar to what Crossfire supporters post about Discovery on Mod DB. Humiliation and insults, or at least saying it's inferior to Crossfire. This attitude won't change overnight only because some independent modders/players joined this place after TLR went offline.

As for TLR, well, when one of their admins (or someone posing to be one?) comes here and disgraces himself with petty flaming (don't like theme, don't like tagline) it becomes obvious that something's wrong as well. But it's more related to admins personally, not the site they are running, and not the way they run the site (same can be said about Louva logs, although I have no idea to what they are related. In any case, racist talks, like flames, are a disgrace for a person who's saying, not for those who hear or any nation). A year ago, when I submitted news on TLR that Discovery entered Mod DB's top-100 last year, one of TLR admins was first to accuse me that I did not post about the contest earlier, thus not giving others chance to participate. This secret contest I was trying to hide was running for 3 years before that, and no one ever paid attention. I replied that next year more competition would be welcome. The only competition was Crossfire (thankfully, we were not alone). A few other modders also began to pay more attention to the generous opportunities Mod DB provides. Most others simply ignored Mod DB for a year afterwards. I guess that if similar news would be submitted now, both me and R8R will get accused for concealing the existence of this event once again. But, em, this is called freedom of speech. I may not like it, but they have right to voice their opinion (unless they refuse to post the news in the first place, which TLR never did as long as I remember).

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What would be ideal is for the Communities of SWAT and TLR is to work together as independent alternatives to each other. They should support each other and have friendship with each other. The truth of the matter is that there are many Communities out there and people will choose the ones they prefer. Not all will choose SWAT or TLR. SWAT and TLR should work to their mutual benefit as well as the benefit of all of the other Communities out there.

Sounds like an easy solution with one important question never answered. Who's in charge of the GLS replacement now? Since TLR has already posted a solution that works, why not use it universally? Until there's proof that TLR is biased and certain servers are removed/blocked from the GLS alternative by w0dk4, there's not much use in SWAT offering its own one. Fact that some of TLR admins expressed personal opinions in offensive way doesn't mean that they are going to ban anyone from GLS. There is place for two communities, but not for two GLS versions. Double GLS will be a bad thing for everyone.

Problem here is that no one seems to be interested in "peaceful co-existence". Since it's evident that friendship is no longer possible, and there will be competition, could you please leave the GLS in the one capable hands (if they prove to be capable), leave downloads where their authors want them to be, and stop immature and pointless flames from both sides. Thank you.

Igiss: Thank you for your objective reflection on these issues; it's a welcome change from some of the vitriol already posted! The competition between mods has always been intense, from what I have seen in my brief 2 1/2 years of Freelancing. Some admin's are not as modest as you appear to be, and naturally feel justified in praising the virtues of their work. Unfortunately, some apparently feel the need to belittle the work of others, or use obtuse measures of comparison to elevate their own mod's success. As far as I can remember, Crossfire has pinned its claim to fame as the largest & most complex mod (sheer file size and # of modded files). I am disappointed to hear that anyone from this community made disparaging remarks about Discovery on ModDb or anywhere else:

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If I can use SWAT as a host for Discovery mod in addition to TLR, I'd use such opportunity. But what about posting news, or discussing anything in forums? I expect that I would get comments similar to what Crossfire supporters post about Discovery on Mod DB. Humiliation and insults, or at least saying it's inferior to Crossfire.

I occasionally visit the Discovery server myself, because among the multitude of other FL options out there, you have created a very competent admin team, and vibrant RP community. I would encourage you to give the SWAT community a chance to show its hospitable side, by posting news of your community in the format offered, and see what happens. Trust has to be earned, of course, but we take one step at a time to walk together toward the desired result.

Hexebelle: nice sig!

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Originally posted by Igiss

Sounds like an easy solution with one important question never answered. Who's in charge of the GLS replacement now? Since TLR has already posted a solution that works, why not use it universally? Until there's proof that TLR is biased and certain servers are removed/blocked from the GLS alternative by w0dk4, there's not much use in SWAT offering its own one. Fact that some of TLR admins expressed personal opinions in offensive way doesn't mean that they are going to ban anyone from GLS. There is place for two communities, but not for two GLS versions. Double GLS will be a bad thing for everyone.

Problem here is that no one seems to be interested in "peaceful co-existence". Since it's evident that friendship is no longer possible, and there will be competition, could you please leave the GLS in the one capable hands (if they prove to be capable), leave downloads where their authors want them to be, and stop immature and pointless flames from both sides. Thank you.

Why not use it universally?

Because i dont trust the hands that handle it. I give you brief example:

1 week ago Crossfire banner was in the new TLR web, today you cant find it anymore. Check SWAT, cause TLR link is still there. Today is SWAT that dislike TLR admins (same that would handle the GSL), and you see wich is the first reaction, tomorrow could be Discovery or any other...
What will you say when you will be out of that list?
Ill be here waiting to hear you.

Check TLR forums and look for any SWAT member flaming there...i doubt you will find any. But as you can see, there is TLR (not simple members but admins) coming here to flame. We just answer...we follow our path...

No offence plz, opinions are allways wellcome here.

well..

so far i know OP, he did never lie to ppl here, or somewhere else.

i played FL already about one year ago, and did have to make a break (some personal reasons)
and now, since im back, i had to face, that something did change. good and bad things

but all this is not a reason, to quit playing. no.. the opposite is the fact. its more to see as a challenge. but ok.. i take this challenge and will make the best of it.

and as far this arguing between 'who did what, and who did not'
its such a bullshit to read those stuff, and see, that there are tries to drop statements from the other side. and also to see, that some ppl try to show, what they did, and try to make other believe, that someone else did not the things they said.

my opinion about it the follow.

if someone still thinks, they are better than someone else. LET THEM THINK THAT. cause, the future will show, how 'good' they are for real.
and that someone else let themself, getting effort, just by reading words from the opposite, is a thing, we should have LEFT BEHIND US in the PAST (like childhood)

somehow i think the acting here is like in a kindergarden.

it was me, who did it.. NO it was me.. no it was me.. bla bla bla..

the involved people know for sure and that for real, what they did and what the opposite never did.
so if they want to go ahead and cheating themself...... go ahead.
BUT PLEASE DONT TRY TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVING YOU ARE BETTER THAN THE OTHER ONE IS.

i still think, who is interesting in finding out, will find out, in which way ever.

it doesnt matter, to the playing people, who did create the mod, they just want to play a working mod, and want to have support (which is helpful) if needed.

sorry, that i do hang my 2 cent in here, and my ass too. but it is too bad, to see, what is going on here.

for myself i can just say. SWAT was there a year ago, when i was start playing this game the first time, and SWAT is still there now, while im getting started again playing a GAME - which is supposed to give FUN to the PLAYERS and not arguments between people who want to dishonor the work of others, and trying to make outstanding people believing things, which can not really be proved to the playing folk. (cause there is so much hard work behind, which a 'simply' player will never really understand)

my little uneducated person, dont know much enough about programming a mod, and so can someone tell me, whatever they want, about it ( i could not say, if it is in this way, or if it isnt)

so to the people who still want to have the best looking statement here and to those people, who still want to make other people believe, they did more, than someone else (i dont mean you OP, i can imagine, what sucking work you have to do)
PLEASE stop that, so that people who come in here, to find out about the playing people and other stuff, can read sensefull things (more or less) and not this kind of acting like a child is doing.

i thought this age is still in the past of the most people here, and they would know, how to behave and being polite, or how to take the truth and handle facts.

and if someone is getting touched by statements, facts, or arguments in here, they should go back to school, and learn how to get better in things, they want to be better in.
and also should they learn, how to handle it, if they lost somewhere.

so far..

(if someone wants to have this statement, which is worth less than 2 cents, in german. just ask)

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Sounds like an easy solution with one important question never answered. Who's in charge of the GLS replacement now? Since TLR has already posted a solution that works, why not use it universally? Until there's proof that TLR is biased and certain servers are removed/blocked from the GLS alternative by w0dk4, there's not much use in SWAT offering its own one. Fact that some of TLR admins expressed personal opinions in offensive way doesn't mean that they are going to ban anyone from GLS. There is place for two communities, but not for two GLS versions. Double GLS will be a bad thing for everyone.

Just to correct something:
The GLS Workaround is not controlled by TLR, only by me. It is also just a workaround, not a good replacement as it lasts longer to show all servers in the server window. (therefore meant as a temporary solution)
Regarding control: The server submission script is completely automated. Every server you can see at stats.freelancerserver.de is listed.
I do not plan on delisting servers except for the cause where the workaround or the server running it are under attack and the attacker souce ip matches an FLServer ip.
(firewall ban will then affect the updating process of that flserver, therefore it would then be delisted after 7 days, as that is the maximung amount of time we save server-player data in the database)

Well.. this thread has been an interesting read. Personal arguements aside I would like to address some things as a representative of the TLR staff. The following is the absolute unadulterated truth.

• TLR has never, to my knowledge, claimed to be the center of the Freelancer community. Those statements were made by players, developers, and server owners and admins present at the meeting on IRC in December. This is not TLR policy and never will be.
  

  
  

• The IRC chat in december was moderated to cut down on spam, not to silence any opinions. The purpose of the meeting was to determine interest amongst server owners and admins in supporting TLR. We contacted everyone we could get ahold of to come to the meeting. Those that came brought players from their communities to show their interest in the site, and we thank them for their show of support. If any feelings were hurt I am sorry but this was not a planning session, it was only a survey.
  

  
  

• TLR has never censored or limited content. As plans were being discussed for the new website there was talk of changing the kind of news we would post, specifically not posting server announcements. However, the only reason for doing so would be because we think we can offer better methods of advertisement for servers than simple monotonous news posting. Any signs of censorship that people might have misconstrued were a result of our horrible experiences over the last year with mail trouble and a lack of active staff to post news. We are sorry for the inconvenience.
  

  
  

• TLR has, over the last year, had a severe problem with active staff members to run the site and forums. Additionally, the staff that did remain did not enforce the rules very well on the forums. Then there were other more personal issues, which many of you are at least aware of but probably only know some of the details. This led to numerous problems for which we are very sorry. For this reason and others we are completely re-organizing the administration of the TLR site and community to include members in the decision making process. Details of this new administration will be revealed at the next open forum on IRC.
  

  
  

• TLR is not run by me, but by a team of administrators. Decisions made were made with approval and not by one person doing their own thing. Furthermore, I had not been directly involved with administrating the TLR website and community until the last five months, when I was asked by Eraser to help while bakedpotato was gone. Before that I was merely techinical support.
  

  
  

• The decisions to limit what was revealed to the public was made, or so we thought, in the best interest of our community. Over the last five months plans have changed so many times that if we had posted updates on each change the community would have told us to take a hike and went elsewhere. This would not have been a problem normally had these confidential conversations stayed confidential. However, in the future the community will be much more aware of what is going on with TLR since they will be involved in the decision making process. We are sorry for not having been more forthcoming in the past. We have even created a mailing list for server owners and admins to help distribute important information regarding our site.
  

  
  

• TLR has made no plans to take over the global Freelancer community. Not only would it be a wasted effort but it would make a lot of people angry. Many have misconstrued what was said at the IRC meeting and I would like to set that record straight. We have no plans to assimilate or replace any other community. If any site would like to merge with us or join forces in an affiliated partnership that is their choice and we would consider those offers seriously. What I meant when I suggested some options to the community for other sites to join with us was that TLR plans on re-opening its web hosting service to other communities. We are offering this opportunity to any who would like to take it. We can support any HTML/PHP & MySQL based website. Also, we will not remove your hosting for any reason or whim that might cross our minds. Illegal content and actions are the only grounds for removal, as with any other web hosting company.
  

  
  

• TLR has no plans to force other communities to move their forums to our site. Again, if people would like to have a forum hosted here they are welcome to apply. For the rest of the community we are now offering links to their forum communities via our forum. The only rule we have about getting a hosted forum, as opposed to a linked one, is that you do not already have a forum community. There is no point in splitting up an existing server or clan community into two locations. Any forums wanting to move their forum to be hosted by TLR will have to get in touch with us so we can work on importing their user and post database.
  

  
  

• A Global List Server project is being developed by a member of the =EOA= Players Consortium and is nearly complete. However, things have been set in motion to try and acquire the original Zonematch server software from Microsoft so that the =EOA= solution will not be necessary. In either case the concern about servers being banned from the GLS at the whim of TLR is unfounded. The only possible grounds for being banned is if a server is participating in illegal activities (e.g. packeting or hacking other servers). The only reason for having the ability to ban servers is to protect the community at large from hostile groups. Now we can't actually protect anyone, but through this feature we can passively persuade them to play ball.
  

  
  

• Finally, TLR is committed to making all the necessary changes it needs to in order to better serve the global community and to create an environment that people want to be in. For this we need your help, your support, and your willingness to give us a chance to redeem ourselves. We have made many mistakes in the past but we plan on rectifying them and making sure they do not happen again. All we are asking for is a fair chance to prove that we are committed to making TLR a better place.

If you have any specific questions regarding TLR then I ask that you contact bakedpotato, Eraser, or myself directly.

**okay edited out**

magnet, there was no need for that tone, was it?

I'm with Haegar. That wasn't OK.

magnet

Your little display above is rather pethitic. You offer Razzes, jokes rather than constructive feedback. Small minds are only intrested in distracting from the truth. Its a shame too.

Op did have issues on TLR, taking members to task in the forums, which was clearly against the rules. He also would not let a mater drop when no happy conclustion was going to accure.

To many would rather heap scorn, instead of peace and working together. Even working in two differnt sites, side by side, has not been considered by SWAT. For the sake of Freelancer, much is wasted.

My Nickels worth.

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Even working in two differnt sites, side by side, has not been considered by SWAT.

I'm pretty sure thats not true FD. We still link to you -- you guys don't link to us.

@ Louva: It's good to see a concise, considered summary of TLR's status from a staff member. An analysis like this posted prior to the IRC meeting would have helped considerably to put attendees in the proper frame of mind for a rational discussion, as opposed to what actually occurred.

Hopefully you can see by now that we at SWAT are working at increasing the availability of FL resources, irrespective of what LR does. So contrary to Finalday's complaint:

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Even working in two differnt sites, side by side, has not been considered by SWAT.

this is exactly what is happening now; two different sites. I'm not sure what is meant by "side by side", but it seems to me that diversity is a good thing, and the differences between the two will most likely complement each other, if we can just jettison the rankor. [1615]

@ Magnet

I'm with Haegar and Blur, that was no good m8.

@ Finalday

"peace and working together. Even working in two differnt sites, side by side". Sounds like a good plan. Friendship and mutual respect are always the best path

@ Louva

I apologise for my insults against you in this thread.

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Originally posted by SWAT_OP-R8R
and finally I need to excuse for magnet... he is still young and has much to learn
hot headed

[blushes]

[SIZE=1]off-topic: i got a new avatar :)[/SIZE]

@Blur Swat's link is back on lancers forum page.

As to working side by side, thats more of a statement, of co-existing, not nessisarily working literally together. But both sides need to let the past go, and move on. Literally, write off the wrongs, and start fresh. Other wise old wounds will only stir up more damage.

Just a hope