Posts by Louva-Deus

  • Relations with Lancersreactor

    Quote

    Originally posted by Gunny
    Yeah that's all fine and dandy Louva, but the fuck-up was attacking our server and ruining OUR fun here. That attack was not on Op, it was on US, the community of Crossfire, which is OP's project.


    The problem is that Azza believes that the community must pay for the crimes of the leader. And... so do you guys based on what I have seen in this thread. You are all ready to can the TLR community because of MentalChaos' leadership. You are about to return the favor and ruin the fun over on their site. I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like playing the part of the bigger man to me.


    Quote

    Some of us actually pay money into this server, so we have an interest in seeing it up and running properly without someone hacking it in order to take a stab at Op.


    Ideally there shouldn't be any reason to take a stab at OP. One would have to assume he did something to bring it on. Just a thought.


    Quote

    Like I said before, there is enough documented admissions to bring legal action against all parties involved in the hacking, so do we need to go there or as I said before, go back to our own homes and stay in them?


    So the big question is this: Do ALL the Server owners and Admins want to LOSE everything they worked for, over the years AND is the hacking worth it?


    The problem with that logic is you don't understand the position you will put everyone in if you pursue that. Azza has nothing to lose and even if you manage to shut him down he has friends who will take his place and you will be worse off than before. I'm not saying that you guys should roll over and take what is happening without doing something. All I am saying is that there are better ways to resolve the problem that will bring long-term results.


    Quote

    Originally posted by Centaurian
    Thanks for the update, Louva; it's refreshing to see a voice of reason out there in the weeds. The quote above is really short-sighted; if OP "brought his community into the fray", TLR forums would be smoking with the load we could bring to bear on them. The reason more of us do not enter the conversation, here or on TLR's IRC channel or forums, is that the entire debacle is really beneath our dignity. OP is really the only one here who cares enough to bring his hip waders to TLR and shovel the dung as it piles up... Even so, there is probably not a single member of SWAT who would not like to see TLR back to its old self. Sadly, it does not appear that the reverse is true.


    Part of the point of my post was to show that everyone is being short-sighted in this situation. The people at TLR have their POV on how things are and so do you. The only way to resolve those differences is by talking them out. But judging people for having a different point of view without trying to see it from that angle really puts you on the same level as them because that is what they are doing. You talk about dignity but part of the definition of the word is having an appreciation for the gravity of the situation at hand and you can't do that without understanding both sides of it.


    Quote

    Originally posted by SWAT_OP-R8R
    i like to state other propaganda of the past 7 months (sorry that this involves you aswell ld)


    the above are official TLR statements directed against SWAT and other FL communities and there were much more It is interesting when a community like TLR where every post that does not fit to the official TLR oppinion gets deleted makes statements about propaganda in a community where the members can express their oppinions based on valid facts.


    This doesn't really involve me because propaganda is spreading something specifically to cause harm, and I never did that. Your posts back then behind the backs of the TLR staff and your new ones now saying the site was doomed would qualify as propaganda more than what I said and I think you should have expected they would be deleted. Making a big fuss over it to vilify the admins is definitely taking things too far. As far as the censorship that has been going on at TLR I think you should have talked about it with MentalChaos and found out why it was happening and what you could do to address that issue. Also, saying your site is the biggest, best, or most popular is stupid, but you are also guilty of that in reference to SWAT.


    Quote

    2. when did someone give TLR the right to do decisions for the entire FL community without asking them
    exactly this did happen not long ago on the cloaking issue
    and what gives TLR the right to attack SWAT just because we did an opposite decision on this matter?


    3. what gives a TLR owner or a TLR staff member the right to break TLR rules
    do they stand over the laws?
    hereby i mean insults, lies, flames against SWAT and others


    TLR has been under bad management from its inception. The real question is what can you do to change this problem? It starts by having a calm and collected conversation with MentalChaos and having several examples to show what you are talking about.


    Quote

    The only1 i did talk with was mental. we did talk in private. I did not talk a single word with azza for several weeks until he hacked SWAT. I left mentals chat because he once more insulted me and i dont discuss with a person which throws insults into my direction. Thats why i left. And until Mental did influence azza there was no real problem at all.


    On my site we have a saying: grow a thicker skin. If you can't discard insults for the worthless garbage they are and continue with the discussion at hand, if it is important, then you might not be the kind of leader your community needs. Also, do you have proof that MentalChaos influenced Azza in some way?


    Quote

    The use of caps was only an option to me since nobody of those which were at that chat did listen to what i did say... instead of a respectful talk i was insulted again... the chat was spammed... and i didnt even get a single chance to say what i had to say. In order to get attention i used caps.


    more i dont have to say at this point of time
    i will prepare the summary and TLR gets the chance to deal with it in a peaceful way... that means if that is an option to them.


    This thread is one reason why they don't respect you, and as long as they don't respect you then you are not really in any position to make ultimatums, because the outcome would be predetermined and totally invalid. You have a habit of posting things here on your site that don't really need to be made public. Your excuse is that the public should be informed, but at the same time you are fostering more hostility between these two communities. The SWAT community members don't necessarily care what goes on at TLR and you already know that your posts piss off people in the TLR community, and yet you still do it. It is no wonder why they treat you the way they do.


    Quote

    Originally posted by Huor_Súrion
    uff much to read again - well louva i appreciate your update vm. Nevertheless. Azza attacked our server - knowing from TLR admins. It cant be made undone so they are guilty anyway.


    And OP uses the democratic way - he made it public and therefore i am really grateful. As i am member of this community i would like decide for myself whats going on and into what direction. What TLR does seems to me a bit like a dictatorship (at least it seems so a bit)


    The TLR admins know about the attack now, but not necessarily when it happened. Don't assume that just because Azza wasn't immediately banned. Unless you have a log proving otherwise you need to be careful about what accusations you throw around. Also, what is democracy when only one side of the story has been presented? This is the problem with OP-R8R's log posts: he never shows the other side of the story. You would be interested to know that one of the definitions of a dictator is someone with authority who prescribes things like conduct or usage, or in this case point of view. He gives you the POV you are to use to look at a situation so that the 'vote' outcome is what he wants it to be.


    ---


    I am not trying to pick fights here but I know someone is going to get a little worked up over some of the things I have said. All I ask is that you think about what I am advocating here, and that is to have an open mind that can consider all sides of the story and can understand why both sides are doing what they are doing. Making decisions based on only half the story is like having one of your legs chopped off right before you run a marathon. Your decisions will not be fair or unbiased.

  • Relations with Lancersreactor

    Quote

    Originally posted by SWAT_OP-R8R
    SWAT was under attack again the entire afternoon


    here are the latest TLR logs:


    Here is the log from just after OP left the channel. I'm posting it to make a point that I hope all of you get. The Freelancer community has a habit of making problems worse rather than better. If you really want things to improve then you have you have to stop making them worse.


    The SWAT and Starport websites were attacked because Azza felt like OP was making threats (his words) and then leaving the channel to avoid any real discussion (which pissed Azza off). Whether or not any of that was true is irrelevant to my point. Azza clearly misunderstood what OP was saying and reacted. Once the attack was made things got out of hand and as you can see from the previously posted log OP got rather angry and started talking in caps. At this point OP was making the situation even worse and nearly got the SWAT website under fire again.


    Here is the conversation that followed. It has been edited to remove off-topic messages and I fixed spelling errors to maintain clarity.



    Objectivity and self-control are necessary qualities for dealing with problems like this. Posting logs of conversations that have gone bad on this site and/or others only serves to make the problem worse. So before you all throw in the towel regarding TLR I suggest you cool off first and then try and figure out how you contributed to the problem and fix that before you do anything else. MentalChaos is not going to listen to people who get in his face talking about everything he is doing wrong if they are also contributing to the problem.


    The only way to solve a problem is if all parties are listening, and right now nobody is listening because they are worked up over the issue.


    My $0.02

  • TLR back online

    I will be more careful with my words. A lot of this comes from conflicting ideologies I suppose. To me everyone in the community is first and foremost a member of the community. The admins and staff have merely volunteered to take on more responsibilities, but that does not place them above any other user and they should not be treated any differently. To me setting up admins and staff as a different class held to a higher standard not only supports elitism but it fosters bad blood between the 'upper class' and the 'lower class'. I think everyone should be held to the same standard, whatever that is. This is how it works in all of my other communities, so it will be hard for me to remember TLR is a special case.


    Having a high rank in Google doesn't say anything about the quality of a site, but it does say something about the visibility of it, and that was my only point. For whatever reason TLR is more visible than the majority of English-speaking Freelancer sites. All that means is we have more responsibility to get things right the first time.


    DwnUndr, I'm sorry for not providing an answer sooner to your questions. We plan on having a link database to as many Freelancer sites as possible. We have nothing against your new website. The only thing I told you was that you created it prematurely. As for the news thing, I got that from multiple sources and not just your site. I will try to remember to update that post with the source info, but it will take me a while to find them all again. You need to send any news you want posted to bakedpotato. I will have to look to see if I can find your site's button for a link. If you have further questions feel free to email me.


    It is my hope that this discussion can end now. Any further grievance's should be handled in private.

  • TLR back online

    According to a Google search TLR is the top active English-speaking Freelancer fansite site on the Internet. If you punch in a comparison of English Freelancer sites in Alexa TLR is leading even 3dactionplanet.com (GameSpy). A large number of people who know about Freelancer know about TLR as well. And we are linked by Microsoft, however cheap you think that is. What I said is true. We are the biggest name amongst English-speaking Freelancer websites, but saying that is not the same as saying we are the center of the Freelancer community. You are twisting my words and implying a sense of superiority when there isn't one. I was merely stating a fact.


    There is a difference between TLR policy and the opinions expressed by TLR staff. As unfortunate and unfair as it sounds most of the staff do not even think about foreign language Freelancer communities, so their comments should be interpreted as only encompassing English-speaking communities. For the sake of avoiding any further complaints on this issue we will make sure to not make such statements anymore. We also hope to change our awareness of other communities so that we can work together with them for our common goals.


    On the IRC issue, again you missed some things that were very important. It was a survey and not a planning session. I made the mistake of mentioning some possible ideas to go with and everyone, including yourself, took what I said as if that was the plan. I'm sorry I mentioned anything at that time because it has caused a lot of grief. Nothing mentioned at that meeting regarding plans for the TLR site or community were official and some were just thrown out there as a part of the conversation. Some of what I said was only a joke but some took it seriously. Again, I am sorry for the confusion. As far as people being muted, we made constant announcements that people should pm us if they were server admins/owners so we could voice them and we thought we had gotten everyone.


    As for you being devoiced... one of our staff thought you were being divisive rather than constructive and that was why you were muted. The event had to do with TLR alone and whether or not it should remain open. We had lost our relations with the server communities (which was entirely our fault) and we felt there was no reason to continue the site under those conditions. The point of the meeting to was to re-establish those relations, or at least start the process. However, you were trying to turn it into a global Freelancer/future of Freelancer event, and that was innappropriate for what we were trying to do. My apologies if you were offended but it was about us, not Freelancer. It would have been a waste of money to rent a dedicated server and create a new site if there was not going to be any better cooperation between TLR and the server communities.


    Again, the decision to limit news was never actually implemented. We simply hit a drought of active staff and we were still experiencing email problems. As Walter would say: 'bad timing.' I am sorry for that. And again, the community will be much more aware of what is going on with TLR from now on.


    A lot of people have claimed abuse of powers but in my experience peoples' definitions of what an abuse of power is varies greatly. To one person an individual in authority calling someone not in authority an idiot is an abuse of power. To another the abuse of power has to do with actually using their authority to do things to people, like ban them for no reason. To me the first example is not an abuse of power, it is an abuse of a person and there is a huge difference. Regardless of what has happened the way our members will be treated will be very different from how things were in the past. We are committed to making this change.


    Trust is earned as you say, but that goes both ways. You broke our trust and in a fit of anger bakedpotato had me remove all links to the SWAT website. The forum link is already back and the site links will be back as soon as you fix your domain problems. But just as we are once again sharing our trust for you we ask only the same in return. We are trying to turn over a new leaf. We are only asking for the chance to do so.

  • TLR back online

    Well.. this thread has been an interesting read. Personal arguements aside I would like to address some things as a representative of the TLR staff. The following is the absolute unadulterated truth.


    • TLR has never, to my knowledge, claimed to be the center of the Freelancer community. Those statements were made by players, developers, and server owners and admins present at the meeting on IRC in December. This is not TLR policy and never will be.


    • The IRC chat in december was moderated to cut down on spam, not to silence any opinions. The purpose of the meeting was to determine interest amongst server owners and admins in supporting TLR. We contacted everyone we could get ahold of to come to the meeting. Those that came brought players from their communities to show their interest in the site, and we thank them for their show of support. If any feelings were hurt I am sorry but this was not a planning session, it was only a survey.


    • TLR has never censored or limited content. As plans were being discussed for the new website there was talk of changing the kind of news we would post, specifically not posting server announcements. However, the only reason for doing so would be because we think we can offer better methods of advertisement for servers than simple monotonous news posting. Any signs of censorship that people might have misconstrued were a result of our horrible experiences over the last year with mail trouble and a lack of active staff to post news. We are sorry for the inconvenience.


    • TLR has, over the last year, had a severe problem with active staff members to run the site and forums. Additionally, the staff that did remain did not enforce the rules very well on the forums. Then there were other more personal issues, which many of you are at least aware of but probably only know some of the details. This led to numerous problems for which we are very sorry. For this reason and others we are completely re-organizing the administration of the TLR site and community to include members in the decision making process. Details of this new administration will be revealed at the next open forum on IRC.


    • TLR is not run by me, but by a team of administrators. Decisions made were made with approval and not by one person doing their own thing. Furthermore, I had not been directly involved with administrating the TLR website and community until the last five months, when I was asked by Eraser to help while bakedpotato was gone. Before that I was merely techinical support.


    • The decisions to limit what was revealed to the public was made, or so we thought, in the best interest of our community. Over the last five months plans have changed so many times that if we had posted updates on each change the community would have told us to take a hike and went elsewhere. This would not have been a problem normally had these confidential conversations stayed confidential. However, in the future the community will be much more aware of what is going on with TLR since they will be involved in the decision making process. We are sorry for not having been more forthcoming in the past. We have even created a mailing list for server owners and admins to help distribute important information regarding our site.


    • TLR has made no plans to take over the global Freelancer community. Not only would it be a wasted effort but it would make a lot of people angry. Many have misconstrued what was said at the IRC meeting and I would like to set that record straight. We have no plans to assimilate or replace any other community. If any site would like to merge with us or join forces in an affiliated partnership that is their choice and we would consider those offers seriously. What I meant when I suggested some options to the community for other sites to join with us was that TLR plans on re-opening its web hosting service to other communities. We are offering this opportunity to any who would like to take it. We can support any HTML/PHP & MySQL based website. Also, we will not remove your hosting for any reason or whim that might cross our minds. Illegal content and actions are the only grounds for removal, as with any other web hosting company.


    • TLR has no plans to force other communities to move their forums to our site. Again, if people would like to have a forum hosted here they are welcome to apply. For the rest of the community we are now offering links to their forum communities via our forum. The only rule we have about getting a hosted forum, as opposed to a linked one, is that you do not already have a forum community. There is no point in splitting up an existing server or clan community into two locations. Any forums wanting to move their forum to be hosted by TLR will have to get in touch with us so we can work on importing their user and post database.


    • A Global List Server project is being developed by a member of the =EOA= Players Consortium and is nearly complete. However, things have been set in motion to try and acquire the original Zonematch server software from Microsoft so that the =EOA= solution will not be necessary. In either case the concern about servers being banned from the GLS at the whim of TLR is unfounded. The only possible grounds for being banned is if a server is participating in illegal activities (e.g. packeting or hacking other servers). The only reason for having the ability to ban servers is to protect the community at large from hostile groups. Now we can't actually protect anyone, but through this feature we can passively persuade them to play ball.


    • Finally, TLR is committed to making all the necessary changes it needs to in order to better serve the global community and to create an environment that people want to be in. For this we need your help, your support, and your willingness to give us a chance to redeem ourselves. We have made many mistakes in the past but we plan on rectifying them and making sure they do not happen again. All we are asking for is a fair chance to prove that we are committed to making TLR a better place.


    If you have any specific questions regarding TLR then I ask that you contact bakedpotato, Eraser, or myself directly.